[matthewd5]

that really sucks.

just the other day i was feeling just a little bit bad for tha 16 year old kid on here who saved his money to buy a little and his parents wouldn't let him.

it just seems a little sleezy for someone to get a deal from you because they claimed to be poor etc. and you gave them a deal. and then they turned around and made a profit.

i once gave a guy free internet because over the phone he happened to mention that he was in a wheelchair from an accident that left him permanently disabled and how the internet was his only way to get out of the depression he was in etc etc.

then a few months later we had a part for cusotmers and he showed up, he was about 6 foot 2 and was in fine health.

i didn't say a word to him, i immediately shut off his account when i got home and he never had the nerve to call and ask why!

the real trick is to not get jaded and stop being nice and/or think every person from this point forward is a weasel!

matthew

 

[taoster]

i dont mind people selling it at fair value but it's when some slimes take advantage of the system that really puffs me up

everyone hate to be duped.

matthewd5, i am suprised he had the nerve to show up! then again there was those free party pies!

 

[shivohum]

Misrepresenting yourself as poor or needy when you are not is fraud; that's unethical.

Selling what you have for the highest price you can get, as long as this is done within a fair and honest pretext, is perfectly ethical. It's part and parcel of capitalism.

You have no obligation to keep used prices low, or sell for less than you purchased for, or anything like that... if you do you are simply being nice.

This is doubly true with a luxury good like high-end audio, where it's hardly the end of the world just because someone doesn't get that new microZOTL at a nice price.

As Kelly said, a good deed is its own reward and you should not expect the recipient of your generosity to "pass it forward."

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by shivohum Misrepresenting yourself as poor or needy when you are not....

Yes, to misrepresent one's self as poor or needy for the sake of nabbing a good price from a well-intentioned individual is not cool. But I guess if someone is truly poor and needy, hi-fi would probably not be tops among their worries.

By the way, I'm desperately in need of an Orpheus, for a few pennies on the dollar, if anyone's got one to spare -- ya know, to heat up my soup cans and stuff. A Wheatfield HA-2 for an insanely low price is also needed to keep my shack toasty.

 

[Tuberoller]

Misrepresenting your self is a bad deal.i would'nt feel bad about this however.I have had stuff stolen from me and I've been taken advantage of by people I have made contact with on head-fi as well as those I've met in person and over other sites on the net.If you assume that 5% of the population are complete creeps then you gotta assume that 5% of head-fi members are bums as well.

I place lots of ads and hang flyers all over the place to buy records.I recently have bought thousands of records,including a very,very large collection with lots of very rare,valuable records.I made a deal with the seller of these records to share any extraordinary profits.I thought I was doing the right thing when I agreed to this but it has turned out be a complete nightmare.I have'nt sold a single record from this collection and I'm still cleaning and catalogging the records,the lady that sold them to me is all bent out shape and has proceeded to remove or deface my ads when she sees them.She is upset that I am selling records that are not even part of the collection for profits that she feels are way too high.I buy records cheap and somtimes do in fact, sell them for large profits.I think it is wrong for anyone to get upset about this,but it happens a lot.I hear"your are probably gonna sell my records for big money,ain't you".Well yeah.My ad specifically says "cash for your records" that's what people get from me,Cash.I don't try to cheat anyone,I never lie about what I think a record is worth and if a person has reservations about selling something for a certain price,I don't try to con them.recently when I sold a pristine copy of an original pressing Tamla LP I shared the profits with the guy who sold me the record.I didn't agree to this but the record sold for many,many times what I thought it would and I felt guilty about pocketing a $750 profit on one record.I gave the guy $300.00 and slept well that night.

 

[kelly]

There's a lot to be said for a good night's sleep. I don't really have the guilt issues other people have but similarly, I have respect issues. I can't tollerate not respecting myself so I try to keep above water there. It's hard though as I set pretty high standards for others and having to surpass those myself is a pretty tough way of life. Yet somehow I wish everyone did the same.

I agree mostly with Jude's opinions on this matter. It is "wrong" to misrepresent yourself though it's hard to believe that'd fly for long in these parts. And it's not "wrong" to sell for fair market value. I'll add to that, though, I don't think it's "wrong" to sell for MORE than fair market value if people are willing to pay. Ultimately that's what the market value REALLY is. As long as there's one guy willing to pay a lot for something and no one else is selling at the moment, you have business.

Case in point: VKA is (fairly obviously) making some money by finding HP-1000s and selling them here. He's using the profits of this venture to fund his on hifi hobby. I'm sure some of you may resent VKA but you know what: if you don't like it, don't buy. He's providing a valuable service by finding something rare. If you think he's charging too much and think you can get it cheaper via another venue, go for it. He's not stopping you. It's work to have to do what he does and he should be paid for that work. Sorry to pick on VKA, I just wanted a real world example and I know a lot of people take issue with him because he has this hobby so I wanted to defend the guy.

Basically if you take something from a low demand market (like pro audio) and move it to a high demand market (like HeadFi) and sell for a profit, I don't believe you're "taking advantage", I think you're just being a smart businessman and making both people happy (the seller and the buyer). Everyone goes home happy except the whiners who either expect VKA to work for free or are too lazy to hunt down a cheap pair themselves. *shrug* You can't please everyone.

Incidentally, my personal goal is to buy and sell without taking a loss. This is because it's so difficult to audition outside of buying that I'm looking for a "free rental" on some things. I try to buy used at or slightly below fair market value and resale for about the same price (if I decide not to keep it, of course). Sorry to those of you who are somehow bothered by this, but this is the way I manage my hobby. And frankly, if it bothers you guys, I can always post to Audiogon or eBay and make a profit anyway.

 

[carlo]

man, kelly and jude agree... is any one else creeped out? i'm hoping macdef comes in and they all sing cumbayah.

i must say i agree as well. i'm all for helping any audiophile, newcomer or initiated. that involves selling for a lower price than i originally paid, lending my gear, or sometimes giving stuff away. but lets face it, i do it to make me feel good. i like spreading the hobby to people, i like it when guys get to hear the competition to their products so they have an idea of what else is out there and make better arguments, i like being a nice guy. i'd hope that the receipient feels the same way and does the same when he sells, but i wouldn't jude them if they did. my one exception is when i give away stuff, in which case i actually tell the recepient that if they upgrade they pass it to another person for free. because it makes me feel good, shoot me.

another good example here is rare lps. most of us into vinyl have had other people's collections passed on to them as a gift, its just something old vinyl lovers like to do. anyway, i've gotten some stuff thats worth a hell of a lot of money but isn't music i like. i have no reservations at all about selling that **** and getting more music. i wouldn't sell it for cash, but that's just a personal thing.

 

[ray4jc]

well...i've secured a few hi-fi audio items from the gear for sale trade forum....

i've got some really really great deals...from my point of view...i probably could sell what i purchased for a pretty good markup but....i don't see it as fair....besides....i really like what i got

i think its great that people see selling there gear for a good price to newbies or those less fortunate is great....thats what makes this a great place ....hmm...head-fi..a place..ok yeah..u know what i mean....

anyways..my .02.....i'm cheap....i like good deals....but..you have to research your product...know what costs what....and if you get a deal to good to be true....well...sometimes u gotta go for it....

ray

 

[jpelg]

My original post and question was never directed at anyone who works to make a profit, either as a full-time vocation or part-time vocation/hobby, and clearly states this up front. Since this community has reached worldwide proportions due to the wonders of the Internet, I have no problem with people taking advantage of their geographical location to garner better equipment prices and then resell to others not local to them. I think it is great that talented individuals here can turn their hobbies into small business ventures while at the same time serving a niche to an appreciative small community. And I certainly have no problem with people covering basic costs, including time & effort where applicable. Again, as long as this is stated up front, or at least publicly known - absolutely no problemo.

Obviously this discussion can begin to include all sorts of specific details that can sway ones opinion or course of action when in "this or that" particular situation. Alot of those have been brought up here, and while it is appreciated, I think it obfuscates the original aspect of misrepresentation that some of you clearly did pick up on, and stated some comforting opinions.

When one gives to a charity with perfectly altruistic intentions, and then later finds out that the charity is bogus, or the funds mismanaged,does one have the right to feel slighted, or betrayed? I think so. Remember the United Way scandal a few years back? Should those people be considered crooks? You bet. We have laws against things like that. It's called fraud.

Yes, good deeds should and do have their own rewards. But I still feel there is an implied agreement between benefactor and recipient. I kind of like the basic philosophy of "pay it forward". But if you don't, and betray that trust, better that I not hear about it.

No whining. This has been a very interesting discussion for me. Thanks for all the intelligent, well-considered input (whether I agree or not

). Now where is that lotus flower for me to go sit on and meditate....?

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by jpelg When one gives to a charity with perfectly altruistic intentions, and then later finds out that the charity is bogus, or the funds mismanaged,does one have the right to feel slighted, or betrayed? I think so. Remember the United Way scandal a few years back? Should those people be considered crooks? You bet. We have laws against things like that. It's called fraud. Yes, good deeds should and do have their own rewards. But I still feel there is an implied agreement between benefactor and recipient. I kind of like the basic philosophy of "pay it forward". But if you don't, and betray that trust, better that I not hear about it.

jpleg
I agree that misrepresenation is "wrong" in some snese, but I'm not clear on the misrepresentation in your case. That he sold the stuff and made a slight profit does not necessarily indicate that what he said to you was inaccurate in his description of his situation.

You do make two points here, whether you realize it or not. Your first issue seems to be misrepresentation. The second issue is an abligation to "play it forward" and this is the point most of the people replying are debating.

My assertion is that a buyer is under no obligation to play a price forward. If you cut someone a good deal, the obligation is not implied that they have to cut the next guy a good deal. I think it IS asking too much of you to expect this of someone. If this is a requirement of your discounted price, simply say so. It's not so hard to say, "Hey look, I'll cut you a break on this if you promise to sell it at this price or less when you decide to upgrade so someone else can get a good deal too." If you'd stated this, and the buyer didn't fulfill his obligation, your argument would now be against a verbal contract breech. In this case, we'd be in agreement.

As it is, you're just mad that you cut someone a deal and he got a profit that you feel you should have got. In my book, that's "wrong." You did someone a favor. You don't get "take backs" when that person doesn't do as you like. You have to live with the fact that you did a nice thing for someone who doesn't do as you wish.

 

[jpelg]

kelly,

I am actually, basically, in agreement with you. But rather than using contractual agreements, I prefer to operate under an implied set of morays, with friends at least. I was just interested in what the rest of you did.

I am not mad, nor did I expect any "profit making". I am more disappointed. If you want to call me "wrong" for that, well so be it.

thanks for your input.

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by jpelg kelly, I am actually, basically, in agreement with you. But rather than using contractual agreements, I prefer to operate under an implied set of morays, with friends at least. I was just interested in what the rest of you did. I am not mad, nor did I expect any "profit making". I am more disappointed. If you want to call me "wrong" for that, well so be it. thanks for your input.

jpleg,
The only thing I'm really disagreeing with is that you seem to think your morals/views CAN be implied. It's not that you're really asking too much so much as that you didn't ask. Tell ya what, you get me a Stax 007 on the cheap and I'll promise you not to resell at a profit. Then you can know for sure.

 

[ai0tron]

I think any human being can see that the type of person who sees another persons generosity as a business oppurtunity is a somewhat confused or unsavory individual. However, IMO that's not as bad as seeing those less fortunate then you as a business oppurtunity. Jpelg mentioned the united way scandal, how about the random emails asking for "donations" after the world trade center disaster??

When people take advantage of other peoples good intentions it is bad even on a small scale like this.

And if that's what this person has to do to survive then I feel sorry for him, and I question the society that person lives in.

Jpelg, I definately operate under an implied sense of morals with my friends. Sadly I don't think alot of my friends operated under the same sense of morals. Sometimes I think, maybe I'm nuts to expect to be paid back the hundreds of dollars people owe me. Though that will never happen, I do get comfort knowing that I don't owe anyone anything.

 

[jpelg]

Quote:

Originally posted by ai0tron Sometimes I think, maybe I'm nuts to expect to be paid back the hundreds of dollars people owe me.

I (and I don't think you ) do not expect payback, in the direct sense, at least. I am paid, not only once by my own act, but again by the act reproduced by the recipient when they are in a position to do the same for someone else. Anything else simply stops the cycle of positive energy.

I like the idea of "karma". Perhaps, like you say, that is naive.

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by jpelg I like the idea of "karma". Perhaps, like you say, that is naive.

I don't think setting expectations on others generates good karma, at least not in a traditional Budhist sense. Maybe a Monk can chime in here. Nezer?