[rb2013]

   
Can you exclude that your vinyl is mastered differently? To my ears, this is often the case.

The mix down to 16/44 for the CD master requires conversion from either 24/192 PCM or 24/96 PCM (rarely DSD or 2x DSD, or DxD).  The LP master would be cut be on a lathe directly from the final mix files which is a whole other digital to analog conversion.  This all depends on when the recording was made - I'm referring to the new issue stuff like:
 
Arctic Monkeys - 'AM' and 'Suck it and See'
Black Keys - 'El Camino', 'Turn Blue', 'Attack and Release'
The 1975 - 'The 1975'
Taylor Swift - '1989'
Lana Del Rey - 'Ultraviolence'
Spoon 'They Want My Soul'
 
Some of these even come with the CD wrapped in the package.
 
Hopefully one day we'll get a blue ray with a copy of the 24/192 PCM file.
 
The issue is of course high quality pressed vinyl is way more information dense then a 500MB 16bit 44k sampled CD.
 
Not to  mention all the phase shift and ringing issues with the brick wall filters in the playback chain on Redbook.  Vinyl of course has it's own set of issues - but the best vinyl playback gear goes along way to mitigate those issues. Hence the huge resurgence of vinyl in high end audio.
 
Here is a very good white paper that compares Redbook to DxD.
http://www.merging.com/uploads/assets//Merging_pdfs/dxd_Resolution_v3.5.pdf
 
PS There are estimates that a modern high quality 180gm LP has the equivalent of more then 1TB of bit density - depending on the ability of the Cartridge to exact that from the analog grooves and to suppress or lower the surface floor noise.  On modern well pressed 200gm or 180 gm virgin vinyl the floor noise is almost non-existent (below normal ambient room noise).

 

[yeahx]

Well that went on longer than I expected. Just saw another short thread that suggested the ART DJPRE II Phono Preamplifier as being very good for under $100 so I looked it up on amazon and it's currently going for $49 and reviews state that it competes well against some much more expensive pre amps. If I get around to upgrading, this will probably be my choice.

 

[rb2013]

  Well that went on longer than I expected. Just saw another short thread that suggested the ART DJPRE II Phono Preamplifier as being very good for under $100 so I looked it up on amazon and it's currently going for $49 and reviews state that it competes well against some much more expensive pre amps. If I get around to upgrading, this will probably be my choice.

Something a bit more expensive - but a giant killer with some mods.  The Jolida JD-9 with some NOS Tele smooth plates.
 
Modding it by upgrading the caps really goes along way to making this baby compete with phono pre's costing 5x more.  I used the excellent Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil caps.
 
Cheers!

 

[yeahx]

Wow! When you said "a bit more expensive" I wasn't expecting it to be $700!

 Must be pretty sweet, especially after being upgraded even more! Still I guess there would be something left for amp and speakers from the $2000.
 
Is there anything in that range or lower that is pre amp and amp like a retro receiver but better? I kind of like the simplicity of using an old receiver for now but if I end up doing things "the right way" later, I will go for the separate phono amp and amp unless I find something better that combines them and doesn't cost too much more than the turntable I end up getting.
 
This thread is probably going to scare some people away. For now Im only dreaming but still trying to put together a list of gear I would realistically be willing and able to do, if not all at once, at least piece by piece.

 

[Shaffer]

Wow! When you said "a bit more expensive" I wasn't expecting it to be $700! :blink: [...]

Relatively speaking, $700 is about the starting point for a serious cartridge. Good analog is not inexpensive. Wish it were.

 

[yeahx]

Such a horrible time to be getting into this too with all the bloated LP prices so even after spending so much on a set up, anything I really want to listen to is $30-50. This all really makes me feel like just sticking with the old junk I have a little longer and go back to concentrating on the digital portable side until I build up a collection. At least most new LPs come with downloads, sometimes they are even WAV. The way my current set up sounds though, I think I would be happy turntable setup in the $1k+ range. When my friend first gave me this JVC, I was expecting a lot worse after things I had read online about cheap stuff. Maybe at one point it wasn't so cheap, no idea.
 
Don't want to derail this again. Just going to do what I can and have fun with it and be happy I'm not stuck with a Crosley or the little Jensen someone got for me.

 

[mironathetin]

 
Such a horrible time to be getting into this too with all the bloated LP prices (...)

 
Investors say: never follow the crowd. That's good advice also elsewhere

.
 
Honestly: this is the time to buy a really good CD player, used from someone who switched to high end vinyl and while being stoned from adrenaline gets rid of his great stuff. CDs from the 80s and early 90s are dirt cheap and some sound sooo good (I don't agree with contrary opinions stated above). The dynamic range database is one of your friends to make the right choice. Steve Hoffman tv is another one.

 

[Shaffer]

While many early CDs certainly sounded more dynamic than the current crop of overly compressed reissues, they also came across as very bright, lacking space and texture, became fatiguing very quickly, lacked upper bass while emphasizing the upper mids - generally, they made music sound like it was beamed down from Mars. I think the DR database can be very useful - I'm there all the time - the only thing it reflects is dynamic range.

 

[mironathetin]

While many early CDs certainly sounded more dynamic than the current crop of overly compressed reissues, they also came across as very bright, lacking space and texture, became fatiguing very quickly, lacked upper bass while emphasizing the upper mids - generally, they made music sound like it was beamed down from Mars. I think the DR database can be very useful - I'm there all the time - the only thing it reflects is dynamic range.

 
Thanks for pointing out that the dynamic range database is only about dynamic range. It is indeed only one hint, but a good one. Sometimes people add comments though like "great recording" or "the best I know" (what ever that means). The discussions on Steve Hoffman tv about the best releases of an album and the sound of releases in general are an addition to find the good stuff, including vinyl.
 
Generally is not a good term when talking about recordings. The quality is so diverse. I own really good early pressings, nowadays usually (but not generally) better than new recordings (and beware of remasters).
 
But the best news is: should one of the old CDs sound bad, you paid only a few cents. Except you decided to get a first pressing, but that's an investment that usually pays back well.
Having a great CD player is also nice, because in recent years many classical boxes have been released that contain the crown jewels of the respective label (probably prior to SACD releases). Nearly all of them sound great and they sell for around a dollar per CD (in a pack of 50-70). 

 

[Shaffer]

I've been a member of SHF for quite a while. Yes. there are some good recommendations that trickle through; though, most of the folks posting there are just average guys with average systems, and rather pedestrian tastes. The recommendations often reflect those factors. I agree regarding having a good CDP. I use an Oppo105. While generalizing is rarely an accurate way to describe something, a means that only works for a few select topics, early CDs happen to be such an animal. It's rare to find one that sounds fully actualized, sonically, though they do exist. Most are as I described. FWIW, I own ~2,500 CDs.

I guess my point is, the DR database isn't about good sound; it's about just one aspect of good sound that is unrelated to the rest. The first thing that comes to mind, likely, because I was playing it in the car last night, is More Than This - The Best of Bryan Ferry and Roxy Music. Decent, but not great, DR rating. Absolutely unlistenable without using tone controls and a low-rez playback system to color the sound, it's so shrill. Hence, only playing it in the car. I have a rack in the garage full of similar sounding discs.

Edit: text

 

[mironathetin]

(…)  there are just average guys with average systems, and rather pedestrian tastes. (…)

 
This is not a problem of Steve Hoffman tv, its a problem of the internet. As you seem to know this, the information is available. It is an art to read between the lines and - in case of doubt - get more information.

 

[Shaffer]

This is not a problem of Steve Hoffman tv, its a problem of the internet. As you seem to know this, the information is available. It is an art to read between the lines and - in case of doubt - get more information.

There's an even easier way; get the record and listen to it. Frankly, that's what I do as a norm.

 

[rb2013]

  Wow! When you said "a bit more expensive" I wasn't expecting it to be $700!

 Must be pretty sweet, especially after being upgraded even more! Still I guess there would be something left for amp and speakers from the $2000.
 
Is there anything in that range or lower that is pre amp and amp like a retro receiver but better? I kind of like the simplicity of using an old receiver for now but if I end up doing things "the right way" later, I will go for the separate phono amp and amp unless I find something better that combines them and doesn't cost too much more than the turntable I end up getting.
 
This thread is probably going to scare some people away. For now Im only dreaming but still trying to put together a list of gear I would realistically be willing and able to do, if not all at once, at least piece by piece.

Well I bought mine used on Audiogon - it had already been modded and was under $500.  To me, and I have owned many analog setups, including a $40K rig back in the day.  It's the Cart that comes first, then the phono pre, then the arm, then the table.  So the money should go there.  You must match the arm to the cart - the arm's mass must match up well with the cart compliance and mass.  If it has high quality pivot/bearings and is well matched it should be able to track with near perfection.  The arm should have a VTA adjustment - especially with the Orotofon 2M carts.
 
I have digitalized my LP collection at ultra high res (32bit, 176K), so I can compare the SQ of different set-ups.  The one I have now is nearly as good as my near sota set-up. And it cost around $2000.  Centered on the Orotofon 2M Black and modded JD-9.

 

[Shaffer]

[...] It's the Cart that comes first, then the phono pre, then the arm, then the table.  So the money should go there.

If I may, a cartridge, in essence, is a vibration reader. It cannot tell the difference between the vibration of the turntable, or the arm, or the LP. As such, the cart comes last, as Linn demonstrated more than 45 years ago: 'table first, then the arm, then the cartridge.

 

You must match the arm to the cart - the arm's mass must match up well with the cart compliance and mass. [...]

Agreed.

 

[yeahx]

I have seen some say the arm looks like a weak point of the U-turn so that could make me lean more towards a Pro-Ject. For now those are the 2 brands I'm considering, at least in my semi realistic fantasy. 

 Years from now there may be other options but I want to have a good idea of what I want and not make the mistake buying first and researching later like so many newbs I've seen on forums. I would probably be replacing my current set up one component at a time and not buying the whole new set up at once. Starting with the turntable and then probably the speakers so I can at least tell I got something better.
 
It seems like at least some of the time you can save on a good cartridge by buying a table that comes with one already installed.