[Otodynia]

Hello;

I first got into headphones in 2013, when I moved and left my regular audio gear in storage for a while. I was intrigued by the differences in house sounds and so forth, and ended up with a small mid-fi collection: Sennheiser HD650, AKG Q701, Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro (250), Audio Technica ATH-AD900X, and HiFiMan HE400 and HE400i (along with various portables, etc.).

Of this collection, my favorite pair is the HE400, although the pair I'd never sell is the HD650. That might sound strange, but the HD650 does nothing wrong, has no quality I wish eliminated, which can't be said for any of the other headphones, and is a well-regarded reference.

My main source chain is iPad (Spotify Premium or NAS-supplied AIFF) --> Schiit Modi Uber --> Schiit Magni 3 (high gain). Changing the amp and DAC isn't a problem if necessary (within reason).

What I'm looking for is a cross between the HD650 and the (original, not "i") HE400. This might sound like the old "planar HD650" question, but I'm not limiting the answer to being a planar headphone. Most of my listening is small combo jazz, though I also throw some '80s and '90s pop into the mix, too. Here are the qualities of each headphone I'd like to combine:

HD650:
Warmth, midrange, and evenness of response. Listening to Tomasz Stańko Quartet's Suspended Variation 2, there are numerous piano runs up and down that come out very naturally and evenly on the HD650.

HE400:
Bass quality, speed, and overall articulation. I don't need huge amounts of bass, but I like it to be clear, full range, and textured. The HE400 is also very articulate: the start of every note is clearly defined -- enunciated, so to speak -- while the HD650 is a little "mushier." It's not horrible, but it doesn't attack like the HE400.

I'd hoped the HE400i would be the headphone I was looking for, but it turns out that the original HE400 was not really in line with HiFiMan's preferred signature/"house sound." The 400i's not bad, but it lacks the warmth of the HD650, the bass of the HE400, and sometimes seems to get a bit confused in the middle of the aforementioned piano runs. I've considered the Sundara, but, even if better than the HE400i, it sounds like it's still fairly bright/neutral rather than warm.

I'm not too worried about soundstage and imaging. The HD650 sounds smaller and yet the instruments are a bit further away, while the HE400 and 400i seem more pacious with the instruments much closer and even overlapping. I can deal with either.

I'm also not too concerned with treble as long as instruments sound natural and "real."

Any suggestions? Are there any headphones that might work? There's no price limit, I can save up if I have to.

Thank you for any and all suggestions and responses.

 

[Monsterzero]

By referencing the HD650, you limit yourself to headphones where midrange is the star of the show, which eliminates many modern headphones, where V-shape is the flavor of the day.

There are five six headphones I can think of that might be worth investigating:

Grados- forward midrange, often recommended for rock and traditional metal, with upper mid peaks that some cannot stand. Very uncomfortable too. Will pair well with your current dac/amp.

Audio Technica AD2000 ( non-X version) fast headphone with great mids, not super hard to drive, but amp picky. Extremely rare and hard to find. Very strong clamp, similar to the HD650. Not the most natural sounding headphone I've heard.;

AKG K240 sextett- discontinued in the 1970s, probably the best mids I've heard to date, lightning fast. Small stage and virtually no sub bass extension. Headphones have come a long ways since the Sextetts were around, so not the most technically proficient of this group. You will def need to upgrade your amp. 600 ohms and 91 sensitivity. Vintage receivers are your best bang for the buck amping solution.

ZMF headphones(pick one)- Great, musical, engaging tuning is the ZMF way. Gorgeous hand crafted wood cups make for fantastic tonality, texture, bass, etc. Mids are very nice, not as forward sounding as the above three headphones. Not cheap and if you want to maximize your investment, you will want to upgrade your amp to an OTL, preferably.

Rad-O- I have not heard this headphone personally, so take this rec with a couple grains of salt, but I have read that it is tuned similar to the ZMF house sound, so it might be worth investigating.

EDIT: One more to add.

Hifiman HE500- discontinued planar headphone with similar tuning to the HD650, including the intimate stage. Not easy to drive, so an amp upgrade will be needed. Hifiman has some great sounding headphones, but questionable QC issues, but if you can find a HE500 still in service, that should not be a problem.

 

[Otodynia]

Thanks for the suggestions, Monsterzero.

I'm kicking myself for not buying the HE500 when they were available new. I wanted to, but decided to investigate some of the other brand flavors as I recall. I've always felt leery of buying used, but I suppose I ought to consider it.

With regards to the AD2000, can you describe what changed with the X version? I know both models have been discontinued, but there are still some new AD2000Xs for sale.

I've seen ZMF mentioned but hadn't heard anything specific, so I'll look into them. They weren't around when I was last looking for phones, so I'll do some research. Not inexpensive, true, but also not as expensive as many flagships or even higher-end models, so they don't seem unreasonable.

Cheers and thanks again.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

LCD-2C is kind of a planar version of the HD 600s

 

[Monsterzero]

With regards to the AD2000, can you describe what changed with the X version? I know both models have been discontinued, but there are still some new AD2000Xs for sale.

The magic mids are not there. The original AD2000s were only released in Japan, hence the scarcity.
The best amp I've heard with them is the very affordable ADG R2R-11. I tried the Gilmore Lite with it, which is often cited as a fantastic pairing, however I found that pairing to sound too dry and sterile.

The Sextetts, HE500 and the AD2000 all are discontinued, so used is the only option.

I've seen ZMF mentioned but hadn't heard anything specific, so I'll look into them. They weren't around when I was last looking for phones, so I'll do some research. Not inexpensive, true, but also not as expensive as many flagships or even higher-end models, so they don't seem unreasonable.

The SQ is fantastic. The craftsmanship is fantastic. the customer service is fantastic. The pricing, while high, is a bargain in relation to other companies flagships.
The caveat here, and I cannot stress this enough, is you will need to invest in a solid OTL and NOS tubes to experience everything that the ZMF sound has to offer. Some solid state amps will work, but the staging and holographic imaging largely evaporates on solid state.

Listening to this combo right now. Very, very nice.

 

[Otodynia]

The SQ is fantastic. The craftsmanship is fantastic. the customer service is fantastic. The pricing, while high, is a bargain in relation to other companies flagships.
The caveat here, and I cannot stress this enough, is you will need to invest in a solid OTL and NOS tubes to experience everything that the ZMF sound has to offer. Some solid state amps will work, but the staging and holographic imaging largely evaporates on solid state.

What do you consider minimum specifications, numerically-speaking (wattage@impedence, voltage swings, etc.)? I have an un-built Bottlehead Crack out in the garage... (And, given the current world situation, I hope NOS tubes doesn't mean "ex-Soviet Union.")

 

[Monsterzero]

The ZMF lineup are all 300 ohms, and in the upper 90s in sensitivity, so mass power is not required. You will get plenty loud on your Schiit amp, but volume isn't the end game target we are reaching for here.

I have never heard a Bottlehead amp before, but many ZMF owners use them with success.

What an otl amp, with the right tubes, will provide is an out of the head experience that most solid state amps simply cannot touch.
Earlier today someone was typing in the Atrium thread about their Bottlehead and zmf headphones. The thread is in the Sponsor's section. I'd link it, but I'm on my phone.

 

[Monsterzero]

NOS means New Old Stock. Typically pre ww2 and forward

 

[Otodynia]

Thank you for the replies. I'm no EE, but the rule seems to be that higher-impedance headphones like amps that can swing big voltage and lower-impedance headphones like amps that sling the current. In terms of voltage, I've seen some amps with numbers like +/-12V, but I don't know what the limits are or even if this is a truly useful metric for a tube amp. Schiit also makes some tube amps...

I'll look into that Atrium thread you mentioned this evening, thanks for the tip!

 

[Monsterzero]

I'll look into that Atrium thread you mentioned this evening, thanks for the tip!

Perhaps drop a PM to this member?

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...ol-ltd-zmf-stuff.962604/page-25#post-16879342

 

[Raketen]

Original Focal Clear perhaps?

If you can adapt to its odd tonality maybe MDR-z7 - bit hit & miss with the pop stuff.

 

[plmon]

Any suggestions? Are there any headphones that might work? There's no price limit, I can save up if I have to.

Thank you for any and all suggestions and responses.

Avantone Planar would be my rec for a planar around the Sundara's price. If the Sundara is neutral-bright, the Avantone is neutral-dark. I find it's particularly good at distinguishing timbre and has some excellent imaging with music as well, while still having that planar speed and tightness.

Otherwise, ZMF or Audeze is the way to go.