[minya]

Quote:

Originally posted by elrod-tom Actually, I think you're missing the point. I don't care if it's legal, I think it's wrong regardless of legality.

Yes, I understand your point. But "Max" has NOTHING TO DO WITH HEADROOM - IT'S JUST AN ADJECTIVE!

"V2 HeadRoom" = no doubt about it, ripped off from HeadRoom. (Who, like grinch said, ripped off THEIR company's name, but whatever...)

"V2 Max" = "V2" modified by "Max." Differentiates the "V2 Max" from the normal "V2." Not an attempt to steal market share from HeadRoom.

- Chris

 

[00940]

I don't think Headamp is to blame in this case. Headroom is. I mean, do you expect to preserve an exclusivity on names like "little", "home", "max" ? Thousands of products contain these terms in their names, just check google. These terms are commonly used and nobody seems to care if headroom uses them for its products. They sounds strange btw, as those terms are never used isolated but as qualifying products. That's why most people refers to "headroom little", "headroom max".

By using such common terms, they invited problems. The name of this headamp amp is not "max". it is Gilmore V2 Max. Antness never used the "max" exclusively. I can't see how this harms Headroom.

If consummers like SE use "max" as abreviated form, in a post clearly dedicated to headamp products, where is the problem ???

 

[jude]

[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally posted by minya Methinks you meant not the case here....

[/size]Now you're catching on.

Okay, I was actually referring to HeadRoom (who has made, and continues to make, a serious branding and recognition effort), but, admittedly, wasn't very clear on that.[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally posted by minya .... but I just don't think the adjective "Max" is in any way ripping off another company's product. It's an every-day word that aptly describes the V2 Max. If it were the "V2 Corda," that would be quite different, becuase "Corda" is a proprietary word....

[/size]You can argue how the term "max" is used in other contexts, but we all know the original brand in this context, and it would surprise me if any of you could deny that with any real conviction.

As to the Corda example, I was merely addressing your if-it's-legal-it's-okay position in that particular post.[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally posted by minya ....What about EarMax?....

[/size]Actually that's a very good question, and I'm glad you asked that. The EarMax is invariably referred to as the EarMax. Just as HeadAmp isn't confused with HeadRoom; or the PreHead with the TwinHead. I've had some side PM discussions on this topic with a few of you, and as I've said to those guys, intent is hard to argue against with both a Traveler and a v2 Max.

 

[radrd]

Quote:

If consummers like SE use "max" as abreviated form, in a post clearly dedicated to headamp products, where is the problem ???

This is about respect. Out of respect for Headroom, Antness should not name a product that might be competing with the Headroom Max a similar name. It isn't illegal, it isn't particularly confusing, and the name in itself is apt, but in the end this is about having respect for a company that has given A LOT to the headphone community. Out of respect, Antness should change the name. That's the problem as I see it. And, I've changed my view; whether or not Antness intentionally took the name, he should change it out of respect for Headroom.

 

[jude]

[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally posted by 00940 I don't think Headamp is to blame in this case. Headroom is. I mean, do you expect to preserve an exclusivity on names like "little", "home", "max" ? Thousands of products contain these terms in their names, just check google. These terms are commonly used and nobody seems to care if headroom uses them for its products. They sounds strange btw, as those terms are never used isolated but as qualifying products. That's why most people refers to "headroom little", "headroom max". By using such common terms, they invited problems. The name of this headamp amp is not "max". it is Gilmore V2 Max. Antness never used the "max" exclusively. I can't see how this harms Headroom. If consummers like SE use "max" as abreviated form, in a post clearly dedicated to headamp products, where is the problem ???

[/size]Context.

Suburban is commonly used. Mini is commonly used. Try releasing a new truck called the Suburban or a new car called the Mini. You can't because there's already a Suburban and a Mini.

Is GM/Chevrolet/GMC inviting trouble, or should the brand be respected? Isn't there a shoe company called Simple?

Context.

Alright, we're going in circles here.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally posted by minya Yes, I understand your point. But "Max" has NOTHING TO DO WITH HEADROOM - IT'S JUST AN ADJECTIVE! "V2 HeadRoom" = no doubt about it, ripped off from HeadRoom. (Who, like grinch said, ripped off THEIR company's name, but whatever...) "V2 Max" = "V2" modified by "Max." Differentiates the "V2 Max" from the normal "V2." Not an attempt to steal market share from HeadRoom. - Chris

In theory, you are right. However, it's clear to me that Antness hopes to gain by association. Otherwise, why not Maximum or Maximo or Maximus or Maxi or whatever. What about "the new and improved"? Deluxe Limited Edition? Coincidence? Maybe...but Traveller too??

To use another example: there are lots of folks who have the first initial "A" and a last name (e.g. Rodney, Rodman, Rodham, Rodreguez, etc...) with "Rod" in it. But the guy who runs around calling himself A-Rod who ISN'T Alex Rodreguez is clearly not fooling anyone. He is, however, trying to scam some notoriety by association.

I don't like it...it's not the way that I would want to do business. I hope that he sees the light...and changes his mind.

 

[minya]

Quote:

Originally posted by elrod-tom However, it's clear to me that Antness hopes to gain by association.

It's just as clear to me that he isn't. What, exactly, does Justin have to gain by using the same adjective as the Headroom Max? Honestly. Do you think people are subconsciously thinking to themselves "why, this is CALLED the Max, so it must SOUND the same, too!" ? I don't.


Quote:

I don't like it...it's not the way that I would want to do business. I hope that he sees the light...and changes his mind.

"Sees the light"? That's awfully damn presumptuous.

- Chris

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

I'll make this quick:

Mainly I named the products the way I did because it's hard to say them without saying HeadRoom. Little HeadRoom, Home HeadRoom, Supreme HeadRoom, etc. They are adjectives and used intentionally as adjectives. They are, however, also model names and used as proper nouns in our litterature. (BTW, I have intentionally NEVER used Max HeadRoom, and I never really wanted the assosciation. I was aware of the context and felt it wasn't detrimental. I thought writers might make some kitchy comment that might be fun. But that's all.)

To my knowledge, a company CAN trademark a commonly used word like clawhammer, but in doing so they must also show a limit to its use. Headroom is a common word meaning the space above your head. It's commonly used in the automitive world. Headroom is in fact an audio term also. However, it is trademarked by me. Which means that nobody can use the word as a name for a company, or product, or maybe even a branded feature, when refering to a headphone amplifier. However, I don't think I could sue another headphone amp manufacturer for using the word headroom to refer to the amount of excess voltage available during normal operation. Nor would I cause I'm not a jerk.

Which brings me to the point in question: Does HeadRoom feel worried about these product names? No. We don't. (Did you ever see those Chinese amps that had the same front panel design of our Max?) HeadRooms official position is that "Any press is good press." One of my favorite personal mottos is "**** Sony". Eventhough I will be the first to admit that without them we'd have no such thing as a portable cd player. Hell, we probsbly wouldn't even have cd players.

I'll even go a step further, what does Tyll think about this? I think the names are a bit obvious. The Max wouldn't even raise a question but the Traveler? Come on. But fine, go ahead, no big deal.

I tell you what I'd really like, antness, how about I'll trade you a Max for one of your V2 Maxs. I'd love to have a listen. BTW, I've sold a lot more than a few Maxs; I'd guess it's around 500. We also sell about 10 AirHeads a day; I'd say we're getting close to around 10,000 amps sold.

 

[Audio-Me]

I have a good feeling antness doesn't want his amp to be associated with HeadRoom, not only does it create confusion, it deters credit from him. Besides, the amp isn't advertised as V2 Max, it's lame to bad mouth a product just because what end users label it as. As for Traveler, there is no portable amp called the Traveler, I don't see what the problem is, get over it.

 

[Possum]

Edited for response clarification - this thread's moving too fast.

Quote:

I've had some side PM discussions on this topic with a few of you, and as I've said to those guys, intent is hard to argue against with both a Traveler and a v2 Max.

But with Traveler, you're talking about a word that people can understand, as opposed to some obscure name created just to sound neat. The HeadAmp Traveler, a portable amplifier of an amplifer company, isn't intended to compete with the HeadRoom Traveler, a bag - at least I don't think it is.

I'd say it's mere coincidence that the names are the same in the case of the Traveler. HeadRoom has dozens of products, and as someone mentioned already, many are named after somewhat common words.

 

[andrzejpw]

I see jude's point of view. To be honest, this is a niche market. I can't imagine more than one or two thousand (correct me if I'm wrong) people having the headroom max or the gilmore. Jude is worried that the name "gilmore v2 max" may degenerate through common usage to simply "max," as headroom's amp is referred to now. Which max are you talking about, the headroom or the headamp?

Although the word "max" is indeed an adjective, it is used by headroom as a noun/name. Jude just wants to avoid confusion.

Personally, although I don't think Justin should be forced to change the name of the amplifier, it might be a good idea to change the name.

btw: my vote for the portable amp is either "wanderer" or "mercury(you know, speed, quickness, mobility. All good qualities for a portable amp

).

 

[antness]

Tyll,

Thanks for posting. In no way do I intend for there to be a conflict in names, and the Traveler isn't even an amp that's in production yet - consider it an interim name for a prototype. Also, I wasn't aware of the Traveler bag until recently. I'll change the name on that, although I doubt there's going to be much confusion between a bag and an electronic device. I'll also go ahead and change the name of the "Gilmore V2 Max" to the original "Gilmore V2-SA", and in anticipation of the questions, the SA stands for "stepped attenuator." At this point the V2-SA enclosures have only recently started production, so I can still change the name without problems. I hope this will clear up any confusion. Also, Tyll, I will consider your gracious offer.

-Justin

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Oddly, it occurs to me that Antness has done me a favor: from now on people will have to say HeadRoom Max and not just Max.

Thanks! (%

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Oh ****! I didn't see your post. No, don't bother. Oh well.

 

[radrd]

Quote:

It's just as clear to me that he isn't. What, exactly, does Justin have to gain by using the same adjective as the Headroom Max? Honestly. Do you think people are subconsciously thinking to themselves "why, this is CALLED the Max, so it must SOUND the same, too!" ? I don't.

But what if this is the case? Headroom's Max has been a standard for great headphone amps to live up to for a long time. If Antness is calling his amp Max, then there is a direct connection with the Headroom Max. It isn't even particularly subliminal. Headroom spent thousands of dollars working to earn that reputation for their product. Justin can claim some connection to the Max by simply adding the name. Furthermore, his Max portends to compete with the Headroom Max; as a result, the connection becomes much more important. Subconsciously, I admit that when I hear Max, I think Headroom Max and associate that with the standard of greatness. If we are really being truthful here, I think people will have to admit that adding the word Max to Gilmore makes the Gilmore V2 Max start off "on the right foot" at 0 cost to Antness. It isn't illegal, and it won't actually confuse anyone who can read, but there is still a message being sent, and Antness shouldn't send that message out of respect for Headroom.

Edit:
Quote:

I'll also go ahead and change the name of the "Gilmore V2 Max" to the original "Gilmore V2-SA", and in anticipation of the questions, the SA stands for "stepped attenuator." At this point the V2-SA enclosures have only recently started production, so I can still change the name without problems. I hope this will clear up any confusion. Also, Tyll, I will consider your gracious offer.

GOOD JOB Antness!!!! That was the right thing to do. I'm going to leave everything that I just posted before the edit, but I think you are doing the right thing.