[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS Really? How foolishly rationale of you. Surely, you should reconsider your open-mindedness and listen to the wisdom of the experts as they thrust their rapier-like sarcasms at yet another device that haven't tried and don't intend to try.

Don't be bothered. Not worth it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda Actually, I'm just a bit schizophrenic with regards to being either a subjectivist or objectivist, and sarcasm is a good way to hide that or cynism for that matter ("The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it", George Bernard Shaw). Left brain keeps telling me about the rational or technical idiocy of certain claims while the right brain argues that an idea can be supported with empirical evidence even if the underlying mechanisms are still unknown or not fully known or debatable. And assuming there's no or little conflicting empirical evidence, it can be thus inferred that something is real and causal even if it is not formally proven using a fully scientific method. The critical left brain usually wins but the underlying rationale is actually more wallet-driven than anything.

Hey I know that place!

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley On an unrelated note, I'm selling specially-treated beads which carefully alter the air pressure of a room to enhance the sonic transmissivity.

Cool. When will they be available? 1, 10, 25 years?

Men might as well project a voyage to the Moon as attempt to employ steam navigation against the stormy North Atlantic Ocean.
- Dr. Dionysus Lardner (1838) Professor of Natural Philosophy and Astronomy, University College, London

Well informed people know it is impossible to transmit the voice over wires and that were it possible to do so, the thing would be of no practical value.
- Editorial in the Boston Post (1865)

There is not the slightest indication that [nuclear energy] will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will.
- Albert Einstein, 1932.

 

[eyeteeth]

Oh I like this one as well.

What can be more palpably absurd than the prospect held out of locomotives traveling twice as fast as stagecoaches?
- The Quarterly Review, England (March 1825)

Ah the rational, skeptical mind

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

Oh, dear, there are morons among scientists, too! Well, that's a good enough reason to scrap modern technology and all scientific understanding. You'll understand when you have to burn your car, smash your headphones, and likely retroactively remove many of your family members (after all, medicine being what it is).

isn't big enough for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth Oh I like this one as well. What can be more palpably absurd than the prospect held out of locomotives traveling twice as fast as stagecoaches? - The Quarterly Review, England (March 1825) Ah the rational, skeptical mind

It is blatantly apparent that you and your lot will blindly defend anything at all, slobbering and foaming to attack skeptics and people who ask for even the most basic explanation to what a product does. It is blatantly apparent that you and your lot will insult anyone who stops to ask why anyone should pay such money when the makers of a product can't adequately explain what it does. I'm done trying to argue with you, because it's evident that you're just going to throw care-free fistfulls of money at any huckster charlatan's fraud, and that you're going to meet any suggestions of disingenuity on their part with absolute, blackening hatred.

Fine. Good night to you. You know where I stand, I know where you stand, let us cease this pointless bickering.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley Oh, dear, there are morons among scientists, too! Well, that's a good enough reason to scrap modern technology and all scientific understanding. You'll understand when you have to burn your car, smash your headphones, and likely retroactively remove many of your family members (after all, medicine being what it is). isn't big enough for you.

Oh lighten up. It's for fun.

Here: The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.
Bertrand Russell

....Oops wrong quote

There is a single light of science, and to brighten it anywhere is to brighten it everywhere.
Issac Asimov

There feel better?

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley It is blatantly apparent that you and your lot will blindly defend anything at all, slobbering and foaming to attack skeptics and people who ask for even the most basic explanation to what a product does. It is blatantly apparent that you and your lot will insult anyone who stops to ask why

But I'm the better skeptic than you. I question before dismissal. That's the difference.

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth But I'm the better skeptic than you. I question before dismissal. That's the difference.

It's not that I don't question, rather that I question abstractly rather than concretely. I don't have the money to buy every crackpot article with insubstantiated big claims behind it, so I'm limited to excercising a physical understanding of audio transmission before buying things. This has resulted in me buying quite a few nice headphones and no sonic rocks, to wit.

I don't dislike you, personally, I just really can't get behind the anti-empirical perspective that (if not by you, always) I see represented in this thread. If it doesn't work, why should I spin in circles trying to justify such an absurd claim? It's like that damned Timex battery-powered alarm clock with the damned orange sticker on it. I don't have to buy that to know that the "theory" behind it is absolute bunk. Same with the Brilliant Pebbles, and the Quantum Chip, and every other crackpot product that people shill for ridiculous amounts of money by relation to the amount of difference they make to the signal (read: none). I acknowledge cables to an extent by the understanding of the potential improvements offered by better shielding and a desire for superior build quality, and I can at least see the reason behind certain other products (like very expensive amplifiers and CD players) as there is a legitimate (if ungodly expensive) objective percentage of sound improvement to be had.

I'm going on and on here, the point is that products like this are a joke and I would like to think everyone here knows that on some level.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley I'm done trying to argue with you, because it's evident that you're just going to throw care-free fistfulls of money at any huckster charlatan's fraud, and that you're going to meet any suggestions of disingenuity on their part with absolute, blackening hatred.

Ah don't be mad. Will it make you feel better if I admit that I'm not a tweaker? I like pro equipment actually, dependable stuff. I'm 100% pro-empirical and I'm even an atheist too...sometimes.

They won't show how it works. Someone should show or explain how it can't work was all I was getting at all along.

The dumb thing is the two opposing sides here are only in disagreement about the attitude best held in approaching a suspicious product.

EDIT: over & out

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley I don't dislike you, personally, I just really can't get behind the anti-empirical perspective that (if not by you, always) I see represented in this thread.

NJB, here is what I don't get. Most of the folks here who you consider to be the "anti-empiricists" are willing to consider the science and give it weight. We just also consider what we and others hear and claim to hear as well. We are willing to evaluate all of the evidence and observations to reach a conclusion. It is you and the empircists who insist that only one type of evidence is worthy of any consideration. Thus, it seems to me that it is your dogmatic approach that is mystifying.

And I am not saying, and most folks in this "camp," are NOT saying this device is good or that it works. I'm just saying that I don't see how one can draw a conclusion based on the scientific "evidence" presented in this thread and nothing more that it absolutely does not work -- and the conclusion is so obvious that there is no valuable information that can be obtained from trying the device -- and the conclusion is so obvious that it merits ridiculing the vendor and anybody who even suggests that it might work. I don't see how you can defend such a position, and I think it is your perspective that is unreasonable and unbalanced, with all due respect.

Again, I'm willing to concede you may be right about the device. But you and others in your group insist, in every thread of this type, that you absolutely must be right.

P.S. And I also don't have a problem at all with comments like "I don't see how this can work" or "Can anyone explain how this can work." These types of comments lead to reasonable discussions. But too often all we get is "There is no way this can work and anybody who buys it is a complete moron, and these snake oil artists have claimed another victim, blah, blah, blah." Can't we do without the veiled insults? I'm not suggesting you are guilty of this, or that my "camp" isn't also guilty, but can't we have these discussions as if we're talking with folks that we really like and don't want to defame or insult? I bet they'd be more productive.

 

[omedon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMHBAT I don't see that anyone's quoted the best line about these things (from the Audio Magic website):

I guess that Hollywood Exec was right. I am a nobody.

Quote:

Originally Posted by omedon From the Audio-Magic web site Quote: We are told by the company that 3 components make up the Disruptor which are subject to extreme atmospheric pressures and then treated with a special gas-like treatment which enables the 3 components to do their job. However, if the components inside the Disruptor are exposed to outside air, they become ineffective and must be disposed of. Who dares open up a disruptor.? WHO DARES?

I don't take a line on this thing working or not but that quote definitely sends alarm bells ringing.

 

[Filburt]

So, _have_ double-blind tests been performed on these products? I asked because I'm simply curious as to whether this level of testing has been performed, as the comments I've seen thus far about the product don't provide enough information to distinguish whether the differences perceived were placebo or not. Even having several people report a difference, especially in a forum like this, is not particularly helpful due to issues of systemic bias.

Also, that disclaimer quoted seems worthy of concern.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filburt So, _have_ double-blind tests been performed on these products? I asked because I'm simply curious as to whether this level of testing has been performed, as the comments I've seen thus far about the product don't provide enough information to distinguish whether the differences perceived were placebo or not. Even having several people report a difference, especially in a forum like this, is not particularly helpful due to issues of systemic bias. Also, that disclaimer quoted seems worthy of concern.

This is a DBT-free forum. That means that discussions of DBT's are not permitted. You seem to have difficulty grasping this concept.

 

[Filburt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS This is a DBT-free forum. That means that discussions of DBT's are not permitted. You seem to have difficulty grasping this concept.

I couldn't tell if it was serious of some sort of tongue-in-cheek thing based on your response to me. Why is it 'DBT-free', anyhow?

 

[omedon]

I believe he was serious. As the forum title states: discuss Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers and Accessories

but leave out discussion of DBT.

If you want an explanation ask a mod. Thems the rules. I suspect that it has something to do with the fact that people either are not at all, or shouldn't feel, obligated to back up each and every one of their opinions with a DBT which some people expect them too.

Everyone is welcome to regard or disregard opinions as they please whether they are backed up with a DBT or not.

 

[Tachikoma]

Quote:

This is a DBT-free forum. That means that discussions of DBT's are not permitted. You seem to have difficulty grasping this concept.

Dude, calm down. He wasn't dismissing it, yet.

DBT: dismiss based on personal tilt/tendency. Only found out yesterday, too >_> (from the second page)

Again, someone needs to put this whole reason of having this thread in perspective. All discussion prior to some major DBT-ing had been about which part of the product is BS, and which part actually works. We all know that there is nothing quantum about the bloody _box_, but what if it can be proven that it does work at a different level? Granted, I am an amatuer science guy; but has anyone given any empirical evidence (as you people enjoy putting it) that the product will not work at a different level?

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS If marketing baloney disqualified you from making a purchase of a particular product, you'd be walking around naked, and sleeping outside on the ground.

Marketing bologna is a good indicator that they can't sell their product on its own merits.

See ya
Steve