[mcbrion]

I had read this article long time ago and I expressed my opinion in my previous post. It sounded like the S/PDIF standard is wrong and doesn't work while it has been working for decades not only for stereo but lately more for multichanell home entertainment systems where it maxes out the available bandwidth and where errors would be more noticeable (although admittedly the cable lengths in such systems are longer than 2m). But anyway, the standard nowhere says that the cable should be longer than something. Whatever described in that article can happen, but only in very poor conditions (bad/weak transmitter, poor receiver). Whoever wrote that article needs cables to sell...

Perhaps. But there was a time when people didn't know what caused overshoot and ringing in digital and it turned out that it was the clock. As you know, Steve mentions how the signal from the source can arrive too soon and somewhat "jumbled" and the DAC reads all that "jumble" as part of the signal.
I'm no technician - not in the slightest - but nonetheless, my cable will be arriving. As well, I spoke to Transparent Audio today (since it is one of their models) and they said they never heard that in their listening. I respect their ears, but I will still try it for myself. Karen Sumner, the owner of Transparent, once told me that "some people like that bright sound, I don't know..." (She was speaking of Nordost). I had always found Transparent to be a little closed in at the top (this was decades ago, when I was a reviewer). I have heard so much, "it can't possibly be" about digital, about speakers, about cables - even about the Yggy itself! - that I have stopped listening to others, and listened for myself. I'll listen to what people have to say (and consider it), but I trust my ears, too. I will be very happy if my basic Transparent S/PDIF cable is the right length, yet I can hear something missing in the sound that I do NOT hear when the Arcam FMJ 23 is hooked up directly to my setup, and I find it better to let my mind be open to things. (I can hardly believe the Arcam is better than the Yggy.)

After all, John Atkinson reviewed the Yggy and found the measurements odd (what is extremely odd to me is that he never mentioned listening to the converter). People ignore "skin effect" and other things that, as an experienced listener, I KNOW to be true. For example, if I say, "leaving your cables on the floor makes the sound worse, " there'll be an avalanche of responses saying, "You're crazy." But I've heard this for myself in a state-of-the-art system (several, in fact). I tell people, "turn off your microwave," even though they have their audio system on dedicated lines (so did I, yet back in San Francisco, a bell went off in my head when I found the highs constantly grainy, and I remembered Enid Lumley, TAS' resident "Alternate Universe" reviewer, telling me - and others - to turn off the microwave. So I did it. And the grain vanished. And I demonstrated that having your ac cord lying on top of your speaker cable was detrimental to the sound, in front of Dick Brown, the designer of the Bel Amp, Larry Kay, the publisher of Fi, Tom Miller, my fellow reviewer at TAS, TAS' Executive Editor, Sally Reynolds and several other "luminaries," who were astonished at the loss of upper midrange glare, once I took a book from Larry's shelf, Placed the speaker cable on top of it (so it wasn't touching the ac cord) and Larry's system, at the time, was: Wilson Grand Slamms, The Rockport Sirius turntable, equipped with a Van den Jul Grasshopper , the Jadis JP-80 preamp, Transparent's Reference XL interconnects and speaker cable, the Bel amp, and Jadis' 800 watt amps. This was a $120k system - in 1994 dollars which, in 2017 dollars, translates into $210,410.70, (according to the inflation calculator) - and yet, things that shouldn't have been affecting the system, WERE. After that, I read Enid a lot more closely and learned not to listen to the "it can't be" crowd. Until I'd (not) heard it with my own ears.
So, I will continue to do the same, because I also (for years) had a state of the art system (also in the 80s-90s), and I learned not to be close-minded. I no longer have such a system (nor do I want it: the anxiety when it didn't sound 'magical'. The 'what's-out-of-place-here-that-this-sounds-so-mediocre' craziness. The MONEY I spent chasing sound (not music. Just sound.) I, however, did not have a $120k system...mine was only $90k. But I have one thing I have ALWAYS had: an open mind.

Anything that can be repeated over and over, qualifies for Sherlock Holmes famous statement ''Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." (and there are even holes in that statement.) Besides, what's the danger? The cable's coming, and I can listen to both. It's a no-brainer. The Yggy will tell me the "truth." I'll hear (or not hear) whether this assertion is true inside of a week - after the cable "settles." What? You didn't know that all cables need a "settling time" before you listen to them again, and if you move them around and listen immediately afterwards, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you're going for a serious evaluation? Gosh. The things people don't 'know,' eh?). Probably why that snake oil company, Nordost, finally invented cable holders for their speaker cables. Couldn't be that they heard something that some people believe is nonsense, now can it? My train of thought is: what took them so long?
The Yggdrasil will let me know easily enough.

 

[winders]

Yggdrasil is a pure DAC. It shouldn't have a volume control. I am always surprised when people ask for it. Now I understand that they are confusing DACs with combo units because they never had a pure DAC. And I never had a combo unit.

The PS Audio DirectStream is a “pure” DAC that has a volume control. I am sure there are many other examples.

 

[johnjen]

And to add to the complexity of volume controls…
Several DAC's will include a digital vol control (like the PSA PWD and DirectStream Dac) which technically aren't using a pre-amp, as it is a function of the DAC chips themselves.

But for those who want SotA gear, its 'better' to use an analog vol control.
Here is a talk given back in 2011 that explains the differences both theoretically and practically.
https://hooktube.com/watch?v=JYjHKv2_OqQ

JJ

 

[johnjen]

snip
and several other "luminaries," who were astonished at the loss of upper midrange glare, once I took a book from Larry's shelf, Placed the speaker cable on top of it (so it wasn't touching the ac cord) and Larry's system, at the time,
snip
This was a $120k system - in 1994 dollars which, in 2017 dollars, translates into $210,410.70, (according to the inflation calculator) - and yet, things that shouldn't have been affecting the system, WERE. After that, I read Enid a lot more closely and learned not to listen to the "it can't be" crowd. Until I'd (not) heard it with my own ears.
So, I will continue to do the same, because I also (for years) had a state of the art system (also in the 80s-90s), and I learned not to be close-minded. I no longer have such a system (nor do I want it: the anxiety when it didn't sound 'magical'. The 'what's-out-of-place-here-that-this-sounds-so-mediocre' craziness. The MONEY I spent chasing sound (not music. Just sound.) I, however, did not have a $120k system...mine was only $90k. But I have one thing I have ALWAYS had: an open mind.
snip
The Yggy will tell me the "truth." I'll hear (or not hear) whether this assertion is true inside of a week - after the cable "settles." What? You didn't know that all cables need a "settling time" before you listen to them again, and if you move them around and listen immediately afterwards, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you're going for a serious evaluation? Gosh. The things people don't 'know,' eh?). Probably why that snake oil company, Nordost, finally invented cable holders for their speaker cables. Couldn't be that they heard something that some people believe is nonsense, now can it? My train of thought is: what took them so long?
The Yggdrasil will let me know easily enough.

Yet another aspect to all of this is the degree of what I call calibration that the listener has attained, which translates to having heard what is possible, which leads to knowing WHAT you're hearing, which then feeds back to WHAT to listen for in the first place.

And when coupled with the fact that some listeners simply can't hear these subtle cues and differences in the 1st place, which tends to fuel the "it can't be crowd" because 'I'm a designer' or the 'show me the measurements' (or other appeals to authority such as 'I'm an audio professional' etc) that employ the truth by negation arguments as fact, end of (their) story.
Which is probably a true statement for them, but by the rules of logic, simply doesn't apply universally.

And in the end, audio is an experiential based endeavor, meaning we decide if the SQ is acceptable, or not, if the changes made were an improvement, or not, solely based upon our experience of what we desire and hear. Gaining this experience has little to do with measurements, other than using them as broad cursory limitations to the overall systems performance.

This is where tweaking and refinements kick in, like eliminating ALL SMPS from the household electrical load (if possible) etc.
And for me, buying the gear is but the first step in integrating and optimizing the entire system, there are many additional refinements that I KNOW help, and so I use them, but many would simply dismiss these out of hand.

And that's great, for them, but as such they will never hear what is truly possible out of a truly well refined and dialed in system, and perhaps they simply can't hear these sorts of audible subtleties, which is a great way to avoid such a wallet draining circumstance in the first place.

And it certainly precludes Audio Nervosa from even gaining a foot hold.

Just a few thoughts.

JJ

 

[winders]

And to add to the complexity of volume controls…
Several DAC's will include a digital vol control (like the PSA PWD and DirectStream Dac) which technically aren't using a pre-amp, as it is a function of the DAC chips themselves.

But for those who want SotA gear, its 'better' to use an analog vol control.
Here is a talk given back in 2011 that explains the differences both theoretically and practically.
https://hooktube.com/watch?v=JYjHKv2_OqQ

JJ

Ted Smith, designer of the DirectStream, would not agree that an analog volume control is better than his digital volume control.

 

[Snowpuppy77]

Ted Smith, designer of the DirectStream, would not agree that an analog volume control is better than his digital volume control.

Then why does PS audio sell preamps? When I heard their reference system at RMAF it had a BHK preamp. Why did they not use the volume control on their Direct Stream DAC? Why just not have digital preamps? There is a reason. There is no digital volume control on their BHK reference preamp.

 

[5genez]

Perhaps I misunderstand, but your post implies that headphones are not affected by polarity the same way speakers are. Why would that be?

I found it more subtle with head phones, but detectable. With speakers you can sometimes easily sense how the lower notes move the air in the room. You can sense more ooomph from a musical instrument with speakers that with head phones its effect may be more cerebral.

Like when I listen to this Buddy Rich solo. In correct polarity his drums sound more organic. When using speakers - if the speakers are not properly set up - the drums can sound rather thin and a great deal of the pleasure derived from the sound of real drums is lost. But when set up right the differences in polarity will change how the mounted tom he hits in the beginning "feels" and sounds.

If you have a polarity function, play the first half minute a few times while switching the polarity button. Not rapidly, though. I know with speakers it changes the density of the sound of his mounted tom. I had not tried this video with head phones yet. So? Lets see what happens.

The Yggy's Polarity function is one of the selling points that won me over.

​

 

[5genez]

Ted Smith, designer of the DirectStream, would not agree that an analog volume control is better than his digital volume control.

A potentiometer is inferior. It has tracking imbalances when set at lower levels. But, some volume controls are superior in their own right. The kind used in the Freya comes to mind.

 

[5genez]

Then why does PS audio sell preamps? When I heard their reference system at RMAF it had a BHK preamp. Why did they not use the volume control on their Direct Stream DAC? Why just not have digital preamps? There is a reason. There is no digital volume control on their BHK reference preamp.

PS Audio uses proprietary Gain Cell technology.... not regular volume controls. Not sure what the Sprout uses. On the other hand.. Digital gain control guarantees balance of channels at any volume. In that sense its superior to the typical pot used in preamps.

 

[gebeege1]

[QUOTE="B1ll, post: 13987772, member: 476557"I can very clearly hear a background noise throughout Breathe, which is undetectable on speakers. It sounds like static, and is for the most part gone once the music starts, but during quiet segments it's pretty ****ing annoying -- is this endemic to headphones?[/QUOTE]

The analog tape used for the recording?

 

[gebeege1]

If we could park the volume bs for a bit, what about a remote for the functions already available on the Yggy? I am constantly jumping up to check the phase, repeatedly as the differences are sometimes subtle, during every album. Once I work out which way the button needs to be I tag the album in Roon so I know for the next time I play it. BTW thus far (I've only had the Yggy for a short time) I've tagged 99 albums as being "correct", 73 as wrong and 7 that I couldn't tell - that only leaves me roughly 4200 albums to go! I know that getting up of my arse is good for me, but shish! PLEASE CAN I HAVE A REMOTE?

It would also be great, but not as useful, to be able to switch between inputs to compare different connections/cables.

 

[wink]

Sorry, never seen or heard of particular DACs with volume control. Can you give a few examples out of many?

NAD51

 

[mcbrion]

Yet another aspect to all of this is the degree of what I call calibration that the listener has attained, which translates to having heard what is possible, which leads to knowing WHAT you're hearing, which then feeds back to WHAT to listen for in the first place.

And when coupled with the fact that some listeners simply can't hear these subtle cues and differences in the 1st place, which tends to fuel the "it can't be crowd" because 'I'm a designer' or the 'show me the measurements' (or other appeals to authority such as 'I'm an audio professional' etc) that employ the truth by negation arguments as fact, end of (their) story.
Which is probably a true statement for them, but by the rules of logic, simply doesn't apply universally.

And in the end, audio is an experiential based endeavor, meaning we decide if the SQ is acceptable, or not, if the changes made were an improvement, or not, solely based upon our experience of what we desire and hear. Gaining this experience has little to do with measurements, other than using them as broad cursory limitations to the overall systems performance.

This is where tweaking and refinements kick in, like eliminating ALL SMPS from the household electrical load (if possible) etc.
And for me, buying the gear is but the first step in integrating and optimizing the entire system, there are many additional refinements that I KNOW help, and so I use them, but many would simply dismiss these out of hand.

And that's great, for them, but as such they will never hear what is truly possible out of a truly well refined and dialed in system, and perhaps they simply can't hear these sorts of audible subtleties, which is a great way to avoid such a wallet draining circumstance in the first place.

And it certainly precludes Audio Nervosa from even gaining a foot hold.

Just a few thoughts.

JJ

Thanks. I agree. I can't blame those who can't/don't hear things, because it took me over 15 years to optimize my Tube Traps. At first, I just placed them every 3 feet, as Peter Moncrieff's original article suggested. But then, his room was 30 x 45 and as we all know, a larger room has advantages. It is only in the last 15 years (and I've had them for 30 years), that I learned that the first thing was to move them an inch right or left, and then even smaller degrees. Once I realized how it affected being able to hear the bell of the trombone, rather than an amorphous-sounding trombone, I realized I had to be careful, especially since I reviewed for UltraAudio.com when I moved back East, at which point I had had them for 15 years. Then I learned that tiny, tiny increments of rotation either improved or harmed the sound (mostly the harmonics). Which is why I say the local dealer, who has as many Tube Traps as I do, has a room that is, at best, just okay (aka mediocre). And his room is larger than mine.
It IS all the little things. I actually hadn't thought of unplugging my modem until I read it on here last night, but knowing how the microwave experiment turned out, I wanted to try it. (I just forgot to turn my phone's WiFi off and then wondered why I wasn't getting signal! Easy to overlook things, even when you're experienced). I can say that it clarified the sound. Not HUGELY, but noticeably: the snare drum on Kurt Weill's The Seven Deadly Sins was more complete. The West Side Story Symphonic Dances Suite (cut 17 and 18) was clearly better, with me hearing the actual skin of the hand hitting the bongos instead of just the sound coming off them.
Good room acoustics let you really hear the music, separated from the reflections off the walls. I heard Billy Holiday's "rasp", which I hadn't heard for a long time. All this and more is present in the Yggy to a far greater degree than the Arcam, even with the one meter length cable. By the way, Transparent told me that the older cable had a $350 degree turn-in value, so I could get the High Performance cable after listening to the 15 year old 2 meter cable, pay $95 dollars and see how much better a lower (on the hierarchy) current design is than the older, higher hierarchy (also 2 meter) design. I'm completely against age discrimination in real life, but in audio? That's another story. But I'll listen for a while. I really don't think it will take long to hear if the 15-year old, 2 meter cable ($1000) is superior to the $100, 1 meter cable that's current. But I AM excited about the trade-in value program that Transparent has. Smart move to keep the customer loyal.
The point, as JJ put it, is that optimizing is an annoying, tiresome process that many would rather avoid. But then, they can't fault others who have a more optimized room, and can hear what they cannot.
By the same token, I KNOW I will not hear what Robert Harley of TAS hears, given his system is probably $150K in comparison to my mere 20k system. Nor do I expect it. But I know that I can improve the sonics by upgrading, say, my Nolas to the KO system, which I'm sure will hold together better during climaxes and will maintain better separation. And probably a better preamp, as much as I enjoy my CJ preamp. Cable (nordost) are good enough, except one length is Frey 2, and the other Heimdall 2. I can hear the difference if I switch their position in the system, just by placing the Heimdall at the RCA outputs of the Ygy and then switching the Frey 2. I'll need a 1 meter length of Frey 2, to equalize the system so it doesn't lose information going from the Frey2 to the Heimdall 2, But that's for another time. Like...years. It's simply that, even now I can hear the difference through the Yggdrasil (the Arcam as well!).

In the end, it all comes down to addressing every detail, no matter how small. For example, cables that are bunched together, or touch each other. Small things that can be experiemented with, without spending a dime. (Just remember to give the cable time to "settle", usually an hour or two. Of course, some cables may not need that, but I haven't encountered that yet.

And to think, in the old days, we never had power cords, or Tip Toes, or line conditioners to clean up the electricity. And yet we still enjoyed the music. But there was less RFI back then, fewer computers, NO microwaves, or other wireless sound-interfering equiment.

The Yggdrasil benefits from the best isolation, although the stock power cord is actually good enough to demonstrate the differences.
Sometimes audio requires as much attention as a '57 Chevy in terms of optimization. The thing is, if you enjoy the music now more than you did before buying the Yggdrasil, you've moved up quite a bit in sound reproduction. And we can all be happy 'bout that! No optimization needed just to enjoy music more (although it helps. [sigh])/

 

[Snowpuppy77]

PS Audio uses proprietary Gain Cell technology.... not regular volume controls. Not sure what the Sprout uses. On the other hand.. Digital gain control guarantees balance of channels at any volume. In that sense its superior to the typical pot used in preamps.

Having read what I could on the PS Audio BHK preamp it is proprietary but not digital. It is an analog volume control. It is also not the same volume control as what is used on their DACs. They did not choose a digital volume control for a reason.

 

[B1ll]

[QUOTE="B1ll, post: 13987772, member: 476557"I can very clearly hear a background noise throughout Breathe, which is undetectable on speakers. It sounds like static, and is for the most part gone once the music starts, but during quiet segments it's pretty ****ing annoying -- is this endemic to headphones?

The analog tape used for the recording?[/QUOTE]

No, both through Tidal Hi-Fi, one through my headphone system, and one through a speaker system. It's present on my headphones, and absent on the speakers. Same detail levels IMO, but one is plagued by background noise.