[5genez]

For the fuse enthusiasts. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-don-t-amplifier-companies-use-high-end-fuses

Counter that with this..

http://singaporehifi.blogspot.com/2014/01/aftermarket-fuses-synergistic-research.html

You have to make up your mind that you might lose some money short term... and can also make some long term gains by what you hear, if your system warrants its benefits.
It really comes down to that. Some have been listening and LEARNING for many years and have made their own mistakes. Those who are just starting out must blaze their own trail and have their own wins and loses to get to where they can eventually have a trophy sitting in their listening room.

 

[DoubleIPA]

The only way to resolve this, since measurements appear not to show any differences, is to have a get together with 2 Yggdrasil's in a double blind listening session.

 

[D2Girls]

The only way to resolve this, since measurements appear not to show any differences, is to have a get together with 2 Yggdrasil's in a double blind listening session.

Heh, that will never conclude anything with certainty. Never seen a double blind listening test wind up with much more than 50% (guesswork) accuracy... also I was thinking of modding my yggy, but I like the peace of mind knowing I'm covered under warranty god forbid something happens. Maybe in 2 years when the warranty expires I will pay someone to add some better fuses, capicitors, and a multitude of other mods, if any. I don't subscribe to any school of thought, but it's not like these upgrades will make it sound worse, no? It's just a matter if you're willing to take the time, effort and money into this.

Actually, upon further reflection, it could be a bad use to get mods done on a Yggdrasil... it's part of schiits lineup that will have upgrades in the future. Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't schiit likely refuse to service a heavily modded product of theirs?

 

[johnjen]

The only way to resolve this, since measurements appear not to show any differences, is to have a get together with 2 Yggdrasil's in a double blind listening session.

I disagree.
It isn't "The only way to resolve this", not by any stretch.

It would appear that many don't 'trust' their own hearing, especially over the long term.
And yes, for the short term, it is possible to 'trick' oneself, but in my experience living with a tweak or new piece of gear etc usually reveals much more that is substantive in terms of changes that we can perceive.
And double blind 'tests' are definitely a short term test.

I have learned that after living with a change/tweak/new piece of gear, then weeks later, go back to the way the system was before and THEN evaluate the changes.
THIS will reveal to you, in no uncertain terms, just what your experiment has yielded.

Our sense of hearing is far more sensitive than just about any testing procedure used today.
Some rely upon measurements to determine if a piece of gear is an improvement, but none of these measurements will tell you HOW a piece of gear will sound in total. And while a series of tests can point out some aspects of the SQ of gear/tweaks etc. it still requires listening to determine for oneself if the changes (if any) are desirable.

Jason has repeatedly stated that the numbers don't tell you how a piece of gear will sound. For that you need to listen for yourself to make that determination.

For myself I use the measurements as merely the 1st step in my process of evaluation of a tweak or other changes I consider.
I use measurements and design parameters as a filter to weed out the 'undesirable' choices, but without listening, over several weeks, I really can't really know if a piece of gear is an improvement or not. And this doesn't address scaleability nor if the changes are 'Better' and in which ways.

Some folks want quick and fast answers to complex questions, which usually means partial or incomplete results.

And lastly, for me anyway, this is a hobby, one where I can explore and test and try a variety of approaches to find out, for myself, what does and does not work according to my criteria.

JJ

 

[alpovs]

Maybe in 2 years when the warranty expires

The warranty is 5 years. You'll get old waiting

 

[DoubleIPA]

You wont do measurements or blind testing but claim there's a definitive audible difference, which you can't substantiate beyond your own subjective listening, and would like a company to change their product to suit your needs based on that claim. Good luck!


As I said before, send them the fuse and see what they think, if they agree with you that it's an improvement, they may incorporate it in the future.

 

[5genez]

The only way to resolve this, since measurements appear not to show any differences, is to have a get together with 2 Yggdrasil's in a double blind listening session.

The fuses are for those who know their systems so well there will an unquestioned improvement.

And, some people (like with eyesight) can not hear well enough. I have no idea what some people listen for. I think its like the sense of smell. One person can detect when a certain oil is added to a mixture, and another will remain oblivious.

 

[5genez]

A/B testing? .. When I used to sell audio we had in the listening rooms switching boxes so people could change between speakers while listening. The majority had no clue what to listen for other than the sound changed somewhat.

 

[5genez]

You wont do measurements or blind testing but claim there's a definitive audible difference, which you can't substantiate beyond your own subjective listening, and would like a company to change their product to suit your needs based on that claim. Good luck!

Measurements can mean nothing... ... We need to determine it for OUR SELF with subjective listening.

Here is what I believe the problem may be...

Some people are color blind. How long did it take man to discover this inborn deficiency? Probably there were plenty of arguments why someone missed a message in the battlefield with signal flags until someone finally realized a consistency of errors.

There may be a yet to be discovered hearing phenomenon like certain colors are to the color blind. Some doctor may discover a test for a hearing ability difference between people.

I can not understand those who say fuses make no difference. It makes me feel that they are totally unawares of how to correctly set up their systems... or make poor choices in components. I just assume they have a hearing deficiency, just like some have color blindness.

 

[DoubleIPA]

You need to realize that I have not refuted your claim, but offered ways to substantiate it. I have no opinion one way or another but certainly curious or I wouldn't bother to respond. On the other-hand you're suggesting other people have hearing deficiencies or do not know how to setup their systems properly, in other words, they're the problem.

A sales man goes to a potential customer and tries to sell them a replacement product for what they have. The potential customer wants to know what makes the product better than what he's currently offering. The sales person says: it just is, but I can't explain it. The customer says: well can you provide anything to backup your claim. The sales person says: I can't, you just have to trust me, it's better.

That's a hard sell and that is what you guys are pushing. I'm not saying your wrong, but you're not providing any info as to why it's better and then attack people that question it. Do you not understand why people may be a little skeptical.

 

[5genez]

You need to realize that I have not refuted your claim, but offered ways to substantiate it. I have no opinion one way or another but certainly curious or I wouldn't bother to respond. On the other-hand you're suggesting other people have hearing deficiencies or do not know how to setup their systems properly, in other words, they're the problem.

A sales man goes to a potential customer and tries to sell them a replacement product for what they have. The potential customer wants to know what makes the product better than what he's currently offering. The sales person says: it just is, but I can't explain it. The customer says: well can you provide anything to backup your claim. The sales person says: I can't, you just have to trust me, it's better.

That's a hard sell and that is what you guys are pushing. I'm not saying your wrong, but you're not providing any info as to why it's better and then attack people that question it. Do you not understand why people may be a little skeptical.

I understand..... If I sounded like I disagreed with you.. my bad.

What the salesman could say. Take it home for thirty days, and if its not better in function than what what it replaces, you can return it. Some fuse companies do that.

 

[johnjen]

Using the color blind example for instance, some folks simply can't hear these subtle cues, but some audiophiles are able to.
And back in 2011 at the Rocky Mt. audio fest, Martin Mallison CTO of ESS (dac chip manufacurer) stated that some people (him for instance) simply can't hear these sorts of subtle audible cues.
Forward to ≈ 19 minutes and listen til ≈ 36 minutes (and the rest of the presentation has lots of interesting insights as well).


He also explains that the ear/our sense of hearing is far more capable than the instrumentation available that is used to measure this equipment.

In other words what we assume is a level playing field (in terms of our ability to hear these details) isn't level at all.
For those who can't hear this (or haven't been calibrated as I put it) simply won't pick up on these cues, they simply aren't attuned to doing so.

So for them such things as fuses, cables, etc. probably won't yield any benefits.
That isn't to say that others can't hear these differences.
This is where direct personal experience over a suitably extended time frame can help, as it can help calibrate your sense of hearing, IF you pursue this course of activity.

But if you define these tweaks as inconsequential, without direct personal experience over a suitably extended time frame, you likely will never get calibrated, never even have the chance of experiencing these differences.

And some CAN hear these differences and some won't.
And until you try to calibrate yourself, (or are already calibrated) the chances are, you simply won't know what to listen for, let alone be able to identify their presence (or lack of same).
Which means there will always be some who will be able to hear these changes and some who won't.

And this doesn't begin to address the state of tweak required for the playback system to be able to, as I put it, 'get out of it's own way' and allow these subtle cues etc to be heard, in the first place.

JJ

 

[5genez]

Using the color blind example for instance, some folks simply can't hear these subtle cues, but some audiophiles are able to.
And back in 2011 at the Rocky Mt. audio fest, Martin Mallison CTO of ESS (dac chip manufacurer) stated that some people (him for instance) simply can't hear these sorts of subtle audible cues.
Forward to ≈ 19 minutes and listen til ≈ 36 minutes (and the rest of the presentation has lots of interesting insights as well).


He also explains that the ear/our sense of hearing is far more capable than the instrumentation available that is used to measure this equipment.

In other words what we assume is a level playing field (in terms of our ability to hear these details) isn't level at all.
For those who can't hear this (or haven't been calibrated as I put it) simply won't pick up on these cues, they simply aren't attuned to doing so.

So for them such things as fuses, cables, etc. probably won't yield any benefits.
That isn't to say that others can't hear these differences.
This is where direct personal experience over a suitably extended time frame can help, as it can help calibrate your sense of hearing, IF you pursue this course of activity.

But if you define these tweaks as inconsequential, without direct personal experience over a suitably extended time frame, you likely will never get calibrated, never even have the chance of experiencing these differences.

And some CAN hear these differences and some won't.
And until you try to calibrate yourself, (or are already calibrated) the chances are, you simply won't know what to listen for, let alone be able to identify their presence (or lack of same).
Which means there will always be some who will be able to hear these changes and some who won't.

And this doesn't begin to address the state of tweak required for the playback system to be able to, as I put it, 'get out of it's own way' and allow these subtle cues etc to be heard, in the first place.

JJ

That, sir.... Hits a huge nail on its head.

I believe it explains why I used to get listener fatigue with certain DACs. I do not get fatigue with the Yggy. Sound is one thing. But, not experiencing fatigue is another important reason the Yggy is so nice to listen to.

 

[johnjen]

There are many insightful aspects during the whole hour long presentation.
I particularly found the info on the transmission rate that the eyes send into the visual cortex (at 3.2TB/s) most evocative.

There are other nuggets scattered here and there as well.

JJ

 

[5genez]

There are many insightful aspects during the whole hour long presentation.
I particularly found the info on the transmission rate that the eyes send into the visual cortex (at 3.2TB/s) most evocative.

There are other nuggets scattered here and there as well.

JJ

Agreed... I forwarded that video to two audio designers I have contact with. I intend to watch it in its entirety.