[438555]

I have definitely liked them so far, but there are limits to how loud I can drive the Maggies with them (using the Jot as the balanced pre to do this now) before one of the Vidars will go into protection. I’d like to be able to drive some Tool, or some Slayer to 105 dB at 10 feet away without problems, but still have that Maggie magic for acoustic stuff.
The sub should help me get that kick in the chest when the bass drum hits and be able to back off on how much the Vidars have to do.

 

[artur9]

... So I'm now considering either a pair of (REL or SVS) subs, and/or upping the amp to something like an Emotiva XPA-DR2. ...
Anyone have any recommendations?

I think a good pair of subs would do you much more than a better/more powerful amp. When I integrated in my subs properly, the bookshelves I use got a lot sweeter in tone while the subs provided all the low end heft I needed. Being able to actually hear the double-bass and organ (not all the way down to 16Hz) makes a world of difference.

And the imaging improved as well. At least, I thought so.

 

[DrJam]

I have definitely liked them so far, but there are limits to how loud I can drive the Maggies with them (using the Jot as the balanced pre to do this now) before one of the Vidars will go into protection. I’d like to be able to drive some Tool, or some Slayer to 105 dB at 10 feet away without problems, but still have that Maggie magic for acoustic stuff.
The sub should help me get that kick in the chest when the bass drum hits and be able to back off on how much the Vidars have to do.

Being a drummer I have to have that kick in the chest as well. The sub will help for sure to give it some weight and you will be able to independently increase the sub (i.e. kick) volume. But, keep in mind that unless you have some kind of crossover (or at least high-pass filter) you will still be sending a full-range signal to the mains. So, unless adding the sub allows you to turn the volume of the mains down you can still drive the Vidar(s) into protection.

A few of us have asked Jason a couple of times for a crossover, especially since a) there are a lot of subs available, b) there doesn't seem to be a good and affordable solution to integrate them into 2-channel, and c) they just did a Loki which at least seems like a cousin.
But, we haven't been successful yet...

 

[438555]

Being a drummer I have to have that kick in the chest as well. The sub will help for sure to give it some weight and you will be able to independently increase the sub (i.e. kick) volume. But, keep in mind that unless you have some kind of crossover (or at least high-pass filter) you will still be sending a full-range signal to the mains. So, unless adding the sub allows you to turn the volume of the mains down you can still drive the Vidar(s) into protection.

A few of us have asked Jason a couple of times for a crossover, especially since a) there are a lot of subs available, b) there doesn't seem to be a good and affordable solution to integrate them into 2-channel, and c) they just did a Loki which at least seems like a cousin.
But, we haven't been successful yet...

I was thinking about that as well. I'm hoping with the sub(s) I won't need to turn the volume up as loud to get the total volume level I want, even if the subs are only filling in the bass. A couple of the subs I've seen have high-pass outputs so they could take some of the load off the amps. It would be nice though, to have a feature like on the Emotiva XSP-1, with high pass and low pass options on the preamp.

 

[DrJam]

I was thinking about that as well. I'm hoping with the sub(s) I won't need to turn the volume up as loud to get the total volume level I want, even if the subs are only filling in the bass. A couple of the subs I've seen have high-pass outputs so they could take some of the load off the amps. It would be nice though, to have a feature like on the Emotiva XSP-1, with high pass and low pass options on the preamp.

Only you can answer the first part given your system and room, of course, but I do believe an x-over can help with overall clarity because you're not asking the smaller woofers of the mains to reproduce those low bass parts (as well as reducing overlap in frequencies by mains and subs.)
As far as using an HPF that might be provided in the subs, I can't comment to that first hand since I haven't tried it but I've read that at least some subs produce "less than stellar" performance from the HPF out. Plus, not all subs, including mine, have that capability.

I can say I've driven my Vidar into protection with a sub (with no xover) while listening to Rush Time Machine Blu-ray at concert volume. I also drove it into protection in mono-mode (with a different amp driving the other speaker.) Yeah it was loud, but it was fun... until it shut down. I think an xover would solve that...

 

[unsane69]

Hi
Hoping I can get a bit of a pointer/suggestion/confirmation/help before I pull the trigger on a Vidar.
I recently had some trouble with the phono stage of my NAD C162 pre, which I've had for close to 10 years. Well, I've been having a mild case of upgradeitis for a while, and decided to go for a Mani/Saga combo. The power amp is still my NAD C272, driving a couple of DLS R55 floorstanders.
Here is my trouble: I need to go past 12 o'clock on the Saga to get to even decent listening levels. When I go this far, sound is... well, schiit. Ok-ish with jazz or acoustic recordings, anything rock or metal gets quite muddy, and uncontrolled; and dynamics are out the window in any case. Dramatically different from how it was with the C162. I should add: This is with CD as the source, still not touching my vinyl until I get sorted out what trouble I'm having there. Cabling is double- and triplechecked.
Did a bit of research and while I usually don't have huge issues with some technical stuff, some of this quickly turns to greek for me (or maybe it's poorly explained ); but the gist I took away was that the 272 is probably a poor match for the Saga.

Here's the question: Would I get better results with a Vidar instead of the 272? (At least as long as I don't turn the volume to 11!)

Bunch of links to specs for 272 and DSL R55s:

https://nadelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Data-Sheet-C-272-Stereo-Power-Amplifier.pdf
http://dls.se/en/home/prod.html?produkt=en_958

 

[Alcophone]

Hi
Hoping I can get a bit of a pointer/suggestion/confirmation/help before I pull the trigger on a Vidar.
I recently had some trouble with the phono stage of my NAD C162 pre, which I've had for close to 10 years. Well, I've been having a mild case of upgradeitis for a while, and decided to go for a Mani/Saga combo. The power amp is still my NAD C272, driving a couple of DSL R55 floorstanders.
Here is my trouble: I need to go past 12 o'clock on the Saga to get to even decent listening levels. When I go this far, sound is... well, schiit. Ok-ish with jazz or acoustic recordings, anything rock or metal gets quite muddy, and uncontrolled; and dynamics are out the window in any case. Dramatically different from how it was with the C162. I should add: This is with CD as the source, still not touching my vinyl until I get sorted out what trouble I'm having there. Cabling is double- and triplechecked.
Did a bit of research and while I usually don't have huge issues with some technical stuff, some of this quickly turns to greek for me (or maybe it's poorly explained ); but the gist I took away was that the 272 is probably a poor match for the Saga.

Here's the question: Would I get better results with a Vidar instead of the 272? (At least as long as I don't turn the volume to 11!)

Bunch of links to specs for 272 and DSL R55s:

https://nadelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Data-Sheet-C-272-Stereo-Power-Amplifier.pdf
http://dls.se/en/home/prod.html?produkt=en_958

Have you tried both the active and passive mode Saga has? What tube are you using?

 

[unsane69]

Have you tried both the active and passive mode Saga has? What tube are you using?

Both passive and active mode, only minor difference. Tube buffer is a bit better, but not by much. Using stock tube. I bought from a reseller in Europe, they didn't have LISST available for Saga, unfortunately.

 

[artur9]

But, keep in mind that unless you have some kind of crossover (or at least high-pass filter) you will still be sending a full-range signal to the mains.

Keep an eye out for a used Xilica processor. They're quite pricy but fairly transparent.

I'm lucky in that my preamp has crossover capabilities.

 

[sam6550a]

Both passive and active mode, only minor difference. Tube buffer is a bit better, but not by much. Using stock tube. I bought from a reseller in Europe, they didn't have LISST available for Saga, unfortunately.

Saga is a unity gain device, so the output can never exceed the input. The Saga output impedance is far below the input impedance of the C272, so that is not an issue. Your problem may be your source CD player, which you have not specified. If you were to hook the CD directly to the power amp, that is the loudest that this combo will ever play. Not being familiar with your NAD preamp, I suspect that it has gain. Also, the input impedance of Saga is 10K Ohms, so you might want to check the output impedance of the CD player. Hope this helps.

 

[unsane69]

Saga is a unity gain device, so the output can never exceed the input. The Saga output impedance is far below the input impedance of the C272, so that is not an issue.

I think I got that far, too.

Your problem may be your source CD player, which you have not specified. If you were to hook the CD directly to the power amp, that is the loudest that this combo will ever play.

CD player is a NAD 525BEE. I'm guessing that going all out on the volume knob on Saga (it being passive) would essentially be the same as hooking the CD directly to the power amp; I have already gone, say 75-80 % of the way. Not that it sounded particularily good.

Not being familiar with your NAD preamp, I suspect that it has gain. Also, the input impedance of Saga is 10K Ohms, so you might want to check the output impedance of the CD player. Hope this helps.

Output impedance of the 525BEE is 300 ohm, I'm guessing that's fine(?).

My plan was to end up with a Saga/Vidar combo. Right now I feel more like I've emptied both barrels into my foot. Am I missing something?

 

[sam6550a]

I think I got that far, too.


CD player is a NAD 525BEE. I'm guessing that going all out on the volume knob on Saga (it being passive) would essentially be the same as hooking the CD directly to the power amp; I have already gone, say 75-80 % of the way. Not that it sounded particularily good.


Output impedance of the 525BEE is 300 ohm, I'm guessing that's fine(?).

My plan was to end up with a Saga/Vidar combo. Right now I feel more like I've emptied both barrels into my foot. Am I missing something?

The 525 should provide adequate output (2.2V) to the Saga. Suggest you borrow/try a different audio source, and swap out the signal cables, just in case you have a bas cable.

 

[unsane69]

The 525 should provide adequate output (2.2V) to the Saga. Suggest you borrow/try a different audio source, and swap out the signal cables, just in case you have a bas cable.

Initially I played a couple of cd's (Monk - Brilliant Corners, Tool - Undertow, Kvelertak - Nattesferd, some Miles Davis I think...) and turned everything off, quite disappointed and bewildered. Haven't really spend time listening again until today, mostly I've been trying to find some more info, fretting and sweating...

Today I decided that having an experience in the back of my head that was disappointing wasn't conducive to problemsolving. I found that I had to listen again to a variety of genres and recordings, whilst ignoring the fact that I had to go past the lower 30% of the volume setting to get to what I'd call a reasonable sound level. (I'm new to passive pre's after all).

So I went through a number of cds:
Sonny Rollins - Saxophone Colossus - sounded great
Clutch - Strange Cousins from the West - this was fine*
Death - Symbolic* - ditto
RATM - S/T* - ditto
Beastie Boys - Hello Nasty - boy, this was compressed; very audible clipping
Beastie Boys - Paul's Boutique - much better
Grieg - Peer Gynt - I could try the volume @ 100% here on the opening notes. Anyway, classic recordings often have massive dynamics (some even to the point of too wide a range :O). Plenty of those here.
Front Line Assembly - Explosion - another compressed clip-fest (sounds great in the car tho'... maybe it needs permanent residence there)
Opeth - Pale Communion* - it haz dynamics

*Rock/metal shows me much clearer now, through Saga, what I've known a long time now: The DLS, although insanely good speakers for their price at the time DO have limitations, they loose control slightly when them double kicks and blastbeats get rolling, especially at louder volume. They also lack a bit of punch in the lower registers. It was masked to some extent by the pre amp gain with the NAD, but when pressed here it is much more evident. This was something I was aware of all along, even at purchase. Still, not a speaker I'd hesitate for a moment to recommend, unless you only listened to death metal, dnb or jungle at earsplitting levels. Too bad they're discontinued.

My very general observations (tainted by my complete noobishness with audiophool phrasings):

I'm getting some slight distortion on midrange and treble on some recordings (Rollins (some piano parts), Death (high hat, cymbals on Crystal Mountain)). I'm somewhat treble sensitive already, so distortion in this range sticks out. Might be the speakers, not too sure here. Dynamics overall seems ok, at least with recordings where such things are allowed. The voices on Peer Gynt were clear and present, but voices generally has always worked well on my system.
The Saga is much more resolving than the NAD, a bad recording is much more evident. It also made some things more in-your-face, like my footnote on rock/metal above shows.

To summarize: I need to listen more. My expectations was probably biased from the beginning; so much so that known limitations stuck in my craw as a fault on the pre, rather than other components. I'm not in auditory nirvana, but it is not as bad as I initially made it out to be.
I might still go for a Vidar anyway (cue "everybody should start here"), after all having some matching components doesn't hurt. And I might start saving up for some new speakers.

 

[US Blues]

I might still go for a Vidar anyway (cue "everybody should start here"), after all having some matching components doesn't hurt. And I might start saving up for some new speakers.

The upgrade path seems so logical at first: "Well, a Vidar would go with the Saga and out-perform the NAD. Then, of course, a Vidar can drive a better set of speakers."

I am happy to read that your situation is less dire than it first appeared to be, and that you are discerning with more accuracy the workings of your system. The recordings cannot be helped, however.

 

[unsane69]

The upgrade path seems so logical at first: "Well, a Vidar would go with the Saga and out-perform the NAD. Then, of course, a Vidar can drive a better set of speakers."

Yeah, it's a bit backwards really. Thing is, I really like these speakers; despite their shortcomings. I didn't hear anything else in their pricerange at the time (~1000€ in the usual crazy danish retail prices) that pleased me as much. I found the cost comparable B&Ws a bit too shrill. I did however hear a few that was just as pleasing to my ears at 2x-3x the price. Since I replaced everything in one fell swoop at the time, budget was a bit of an issue.
I can happily live with the DLS speakers for a couple of years more if need be.
After realizing how much getting a Saga was a cold bucket of water in relation to what was actually ON all those recordings, I wouldn't mind going for a full stack of Schiit, though. I'd probably get a DAC before new speakers if truth be told.