[quawn0418]

I believe that people who say these things don’t hear as well as others, we all know that there are clearly differences and improvements with dacs and amps. Like clearly lol

 

[ckhirnigs113]

I’ve found a great DAC can elevate the performance of an amp. I underestimated the ability of some of my amps back when I had my BF2 (which I loved for years, btw). When I got my Yggy A2, my less expensive amps sounded much better than expected.

In my experience, it’s about finding the bottleneck in your system. Sometimes the amp holds back the DAC, sometimes it’s the other way around. Then again, your headphones might be the component holding back the amp and DAC. There are obviously lots of possible scenarios. That’s why we come here and try to learn from others on the same quest.

 

[jonathan c]

Then, there are days when the mood / ears are the bottleneck ....

 

[ckhirnigs113]

Then, there are days when the mood / ears are the bottleneck ....

No doubt! A simple head cold can dramatically affect how you hear music. Though I’ve always found my mood improves after listening to good music.

 

[quawn0418]

No doubt! A simple head cold can dramatically affect how you hear music. Though I’ve always found my mood improves after listening to good music.

Yea whenever i have a cold/congestion I ache for channel balance lol

 

[artur9]

I believe that people who say these things don’t hear as well as others, we all know that there are clearly differences and improvements with dacs and amps. Like clearly lol

I do not like to suggest such a thing, as it comes across a bit elitist. OTOH, saying that one can learn to hear the differences is also elitist, just in a different way.

I liken it to wine tasting: an educated palate discerns more than an uneducated one. I also believe that too many people only experience music through an electronic medium (TV, stereo, etc) and not enough in person. The ear needs exposure to lots of phenomena to be able to hear more nuanced sounds. Like how Europeans have difficulty hearing tonal languages because no European language is tonal in that way.

 

[Luckyleo]

I'm curious.


Everyone here is saying the DAC makes a huge difference. Yet, out in the real world, the consensus is that DACs all sound the same.

How do we reconcile this?

For the record, I've never thought DACs make no difference, just that an amp's effects are easier to hear.

I upgraded from the Schiit Bifrost 2/64 to the Yggy + GS2 - Difference was noted immediately and dramatically. It changed everything in my system. YMMV, but for me DACS make a huge difference when you up grade significantly.

 

[jonathan c]

I upgraded from the Schiit Bifrost 2/64 to the Yggy + GS2 - Difference was noted immediately and dramatically. It changed everything in my system. YMMV, but for me DACS make a huge difference when you up grade significantly.

• An example of 'upstream' (source / DAC) SQ maximisation to the benefit of the 'downstream' (amplifier / headphone) gear.
• EDIT: to my thinking, "sources first!"

 

[Slackaveli]

I'm curious.


Everyone here is saying the DAC makes a huge difference. Yet, out in the real world, the consensus is that DACs all sound the same.

How do we reconcile this?

For the record, I've never thought DACs make no difference, just that an amp's effects are easier to hear.

a lot of Delta Sigma DACs sound the same. Definitely not all DACs sound the same, though, nor are they all Delta Sigma DACs.

 

[psy472]

I'm curious.


Everyone here is saying the DAC makes a huge difference. Yet, out in the real world, the consensus is that DACs all sound the same.

How do we reconcile this?

For the record, I've never thought DACs make no difference, just that an amp's effects are easier to hear.

You look at the money. The most expensive gear in the headphone audio chain is often the DAC followed by the amplifier, and finally the headphone last. It often has to provide some tangible benefit in the sound for it to cost that much.

That said, all bets are off when you go speaker setup and prices above $100,000. Those prices don’t make sense.

 

[betula]

I'm curious.


Everyone here is saying the DAC makes a huge difference. Yet, out in the real world, the consensus is that DACs all sound the same.

How do we reconcile this?

For the record, I've never thought DACs make no difference, just that an amp's effects are easier to hear.

There are many reasons for this, starting with the fact that not many people have experience with different multi-hundred-dollar or let alone, multi-thousand-dollar DACs. Even spending $500 on a standalone delta-sigma DAC sounds insane for many people. And d/s DACs in that price category indeed sound very similar. To my experience it is more around the $1K price tag, where things start to become interesting/meaningful/impressive when it comes to DACs.
Then, you can't deny the fact that we simply have different sensory skills. One is blessed with an excellent palate but less stellar hearing and vice versa. Both of these can be trained to some extent, but not to the same level. Just like almost anyone can achieve great results in sports with training, but not everyone will win competitions.
Also, many audiophiles still expect the bigger improvements from the amp versus the DAC. Perhaps because those 'entry level' d/s DACs sound so similar. As the hobby is growing and more and more people climb the ladder of DACs (and perhaps invest in good ladder DACs too ) this notion will change. IMO DAC and amp are equally important and should be on the same level to be able to bring out the best of each other. The amp can only work with the signal it receives from the DAC and the DACs capabilities will only shine through on a worthwhile amp.

 

[Slackaveli]

Bravo!
Ladies and Gentleman, Betula!

 

[rudifus]

You look at the money. The most expensive gear in the audio chain is often the DAC followed by the amplifier, and finally the headphone last. It often has to provide some tangible benefit in the sound for it to cost that much.

I would even proposed the headphones as the most important element of the signal path, if the man's ears can profit in some way in SQ out of it. And definitely it is not only those 3 things mentioned. I found too many bottlenecks in the signal path and around.
In case of MJ3 I used also a really expensive power cable, which could be seen as an overkill.
When some time I am into an attempt to mod /separate the chokes from the power transformers by MuMetal foil to lower the cross feed/ bleeding and some noise.
At the moment there is a such big and nice difference positively for MJ3 in details and soundstage depth in comparison to my custom tube OTL headphone amp. The tube amp has just better / warmer tonality/ timbre with the Focal Utopia and still looking into why.
Either it is something in my signal path and a proof of the MJ3's capability to be neutral and to copy an Input into output as it is OR there is a small impact from internals in it as the tube amp is noisier and warmer at the end .

By the way I use MJ3 now without preamp with a high gain switch on and in push pull mode and no feedback via balanced input. Preamp just adds necessity of good interconnect and I have just other TOTL unbalanced RCA pair here, and middle level balanced ones. I try to avoid the impact, mostly positive, the Hegel P30 preamp brought to the chain.

Utopia 's 80 Ohm versus 32 Ohm of Stellia has also some improvement in tonality though there is definitely an different tuning in Stelias as they are with closed backs and sounds warmer. Whereas Utopia's bass, timbre and soundstage are like on steroids, full of openess and vibrant.
Yet thinking of better matching headphones and why such difference to OTL amp for Utopia.
I have also Beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro to try, there were left in my other house, so soon I can try them out as well, a hope. Though they are SE.

Thanks to MJ3's revealing capabilities and naturality I was also clearly hearing differences if Hugo TT2 filters/cross feed were changed. Mostly fighting to have No crossfed versus some in there. And also going between Filter3 and Filter4 which are smooth ones the latter with HF roll-off. (Filters 1 and 2 are more sharp)


Cheers to MJ3 owners, enjoy listening and Thank your for great discussions here

 

[rudifus]

There are many reasons for this, starting with the fact that not many people have experience with different multi-hundred-dollar or let alone, multi-thousand-dollar DACs. Even spending $500 on a standalone delta-sigma DAC sounds insane for many people. And d/s DACs in that price category indeed sound very similar. To my experience it is more around the $1K price tag, where things start to become interesting/meaningful/impressive when it comes to DACs.
Then, you can't deny the fact that we simply have different sensory skills. One is blessed with an excellent palate but less stellar hearing and vice versa. Both of these can be trained to some extent, but not to the same level. Just like almost anyone can achieve great results in sports with training, but not everyone will win competitions.
Also, many audiophiles still expect the bigger improvements from the amp versus the DAC. Perhaps because those 'entry level' d/s DACs sound so similar. As the hobby is growing and more and more people climb the ladder of DACs (and perhaps invest in good ladder DACs too ) this notion will change. IMO DAC and amp are equally important and should be on the same level to be able to bring out the best of each other. The amp can only work with the signal it receives from the DAC and the DACs capabilities will only shine through on a worthwhile amp.

Biologically and technically.
As Rob Watts mentioned from his story to evolve DAC designs, ears are 10% and the rest is our brains, these are capable to distinguish also small and tiny sound transients.
That could mean the more we listen to good gear, take it is an exercise, the more we can reveal in the sound joking. Though definitely the trained ears could distinguish more.
By eliminating barriers from signal in the DAC designs, and amps that is the base. Though it becomes soon tougher (i.e. distortion vs feedback) and that is why audiophile infidels say 0s are 0s and 1s are 1s, better not to know and be free.

On the other hand Great that we can hear the difference and great that the human brain loses memory so quick. We need keep listening to not forget

In my looking to understand why DACs and why cables sound not the same, having no possiblity to hear them all, I turned to synthesizers, the generators/composers of sound. A lot of truth and knowledge for audiophile to seek there. Recommended. Look to a square signal generators versus sinusoid ones and their harmonics when low pass cut-off. And then subtract one from the other. Unbelievable. That is what the ears could hear.
Now do some oscillations in amplitude, frequency, .. that is what impacts also our brain sensitivity.

Hint : if you cut off higher frequency then 20kHz as it is the top ears limit out of the square signal, it is no more square . Look to frequency spectrum of plain square signal and to such cutoff square signal. Simply harmonics of various frequencies far beyond 20kHz are compounds of the square of 1kHz. All to do a ramp from 0 to 1. The proof that i.e. 1kHz square is not about 0s and 1s. There is more

 

[psy472]

Biologically and technically.
As Rob Watts mentioned from his story to evolve DAC designs, ears are 10% and the rest is our brains, these are capable to distinguish also small and tiny sound transients.
That could mean the more we listen to good gear, take it is an exercise, the more we can reveal in the sound joking. Though definitely the trained ears could distinguish more.
By eliminating barriers from signal in the DAC designs, and amps that is the base. Though it becomes soon tougher (i.e. distortion vs feedback) and that is why audiophile infidels say 0s are 0s and 1s are 1s, better not to know and be free.

On the other hand Great that we can hear the difference and great that the human brain loses memory so quick. We need keep listening to not forget

In my looking to understand why DACs and why cables sound not the same, having no possiblity to hear them all, I turned to synthesizers, the generators/composers of sound. A lot of truth and knowledge for audiophile to seek there. Recommended. Look to a square signal generators versus sinusoid ones and their harmonics when low pass cut-off. And then subtract one from the other. Unbelievable. That is what the ears could hear.
Now do some oscillations in amplitude, frequency, .. that is what impacts also our brain sensitivity.

Hint : if you cut off higher frequency then 20kHz as it is the top ears limit out of the square signal, it is no more square . Look to frequency spectrum of plain square signal and to such cutoff square signal. Simply harmonics of various frequencies far beyond 20kHz are compounds of the square of 1kHz. All to do a ramp from 0 to 1. The proof that i.e. 1kHz square is not about 0s and 1s. There is more

I did hearing frequency tests. My hearing cuts out at around 14kHz but I get a heaviness close to a headache up to and beyond 20kHz when the test stopped. So even though I don’t consciously hear that frequency my ears and body are still perceiving it.

So high end distortions from crappy headphones will sometimes give me a headache after about 20 minutes of hearing. Which is why people who tries to sell others on using speaker amps for headphones make me nervous. Just a small inaudible frequency at moderate volume can cause me up to half an hour of headache. I can’t bare to think what would happen when it’s by a speaker amp.