[Erick Muller]

Having never heard any treble my entire life, y'all make me curious about the treble sensitivity.

Is it sensitivity to frequencies above XKhz, where X could be 5, 7, 10, etc?
Is it not just a frequency sensitivity but rather a volume & frequency sensitivity. Something like loud 5Khz hurts?

Even for me, long sustained loud-ish high frequency noise hurts but I've never "quantified" what any of those terms mean.

Thx to the DT880s I know that I'm very sensitive to 8khz lol!!!

 

[vcd23]

Been looking at $2k+ headphones recently, and I was considering both ZMF offerings and the HE1000SE (gave up on trying to get the Tungsten). Been having the itch to upgrade from my Arya Stealth that I have owned for about 2 years now. My Mjolnir 3 is paired with a BF2/64 at the moment, and I have been enjoying it more than my Burson Soloist 3XP. I listen to a little bit of everything, would you say I would be better served spending a little more on the Atrium or the Caldera vs a HE1000se?

if you like bass you should also look at atrium closed. you will not regret it! also get the suede pads as second pads

 

[betula]

The He1000 doesnt have piercing treble though, thats my whole point.

Im not saying bright headphones are great, im saying He1000 are neutral headphones and they are detail monsters. They arent 'bright', and they CERTAINLY don't have poor treble. It's the best treble I've ever heard. I'm merely providing the counterpoint. I wonder how many people havent tried Hifiman cans that would have loved them bc some people just have a thing against treble and they just figured they would too.

Noone said poor treble and bright does not mean piercing.
This is why it is important to read everyone's opinion and personal experience with a grain of salt, plus often use terms like 'in my experience', 'to my ears', 'YMMV' and so on. It takes a little time to learn how to navigate on Head-Fi.
Another slightly annoying attitude on the forums come from overprotective fanboys who are unable to take any criticism towards their favourite headphones. There is no headphone that is loved by everyone, and all headphones will receive love and hate from Susvara to Elite and Caldera. That is why ultimately you have to audition to be sure what you like.
Back to brightness, I know people who sold the Empyrean og because they found it too bright in the treble when in my opinion it has one of the smoothest treble and on the warmer side. Brightness is one of those qualities that will simply differ to everyone on the same set.

Having never heard any treble my entire life, y'all make me curious about the treble sensitivity.

Is it sensitivity to frequencies above XKhz, where X could be 5, 7, 10, etc?
Is it not just a frequency sensitivity but rather a volume & frequency sensitivity. Something like loud 5Khz hurts?

Even for me, long sustained loud-ish high frequency noise hurts but I've never "quantified" what any of those terms mean.

Treble sensitivity mostly comes down to ear anatomy. Noone has the exact same ear canal shape, which means we all hear slightly differently, and some will hear certain treble (or even bass) frequencies stronger than others. 6K ringing or a 10K ting. Not always strong and irritating, but a too noticeable emphasis.
Others simply dislike too much brightness in the treble region and prefer a slightly warmer and smoother, even darker presentation. Afterall people do not order the same food in the restaurant as we do not like the same dishes.

On a completely different note my MJ3 was shipped yesterday. Can't wait to test it soon after some proper burn in time.

 

[commtrd]

Treble on my M3 sounds awesome. Well everything else does too.

 

[artur9]

...
Back to brightness, I know people who sold the ... because they found it too bright in the treble when in my opinion it has one of the smoothest treble and on the warmer side. Brightness is one of those qualities that will simply differ to everyone on the same set.

....
Others simply dislike too much brightness in the treble region and prefer a slightly warmer and smoother, even darker presentation. Afterall people do not order the same food in the restaurant as we do not like the same dishes.
....

Yeah, brightness seems to be a pejorative that people throw around when something isn't to their taste yet they can't really express why - don't mean when used to explain the sensitivity issue.

Muddy bass, everyone gets. Poor imaging, ditto. Well, don't like it, must be because it's "bright."

I'd rather people say, "don't like it because it makes cymbals sound like static" or something less open to interpretation. i guess I'm stuck trying to divine what any one individual means by "bright" since I can't hear everything myself.

I think, too, since so much out there isn't capable of playing higher frequencies properly that one's exposure to things that can may come across as "too bright."

P.S. In speaker design, it used to be the case that a shallow depression between 2KHz and 4Khz would be created because microphones "over recorded" that region in music relative to human hearing. Without that depression, speakers would sound "too bright" when, in fact, they were flat. Maybe some of that is going on, as well.

 

[betula]

Yeah, brightness seems to be a pejorative that people throw around when something isn't to their taste yet they can't really express why - don't mean when used to explain the sensitivity issue.

Muddy bass, everyone gets. Poor imaging, ditto. Well, don't like it, must be because it's "bright."

I'd rather people say, "don't like it because it makes cymbals sound like static" or something less open to interpretation. i guess I'm stuck trying to divine what any one individual means by "bright" since I can't hear everything myself.

I think, too, since so much out there isn't capable of playing higher frequencies properly that one's exposure to things that can may come across as "too bright."

IMO achieving good treble is even harder than creating good bass in headphones. Once someone heard some good TOTL treble, it becomes nearly impossible to enjoy lesser headphones. By good treble I mean natural and life-like as opposed to plasticky, cardboardy. Cymbals and high-hat sounds are notoriously difficult to recreate in a natural manner. Often even on 'mid-fi' headphones they sound either dull or piercing.

I think, it is good to approach brightness in audio similarly to a well lit room. If there is a lot of light in the room that surely adds to detail perception for example, but also takes away from the ambience and might become more of an 'analytical' listen.
A warmer and darker lit room have more ambience (engagement factor), and often all the details are actually there too in a natural way, they just don't stand out as much as they do in a bright lit room.
Just some thoughts to ponder on.

 

[Melineous]

I didn't think the term "bright" was still up for debate, but my final comment on it will be to listen to I'm Not In Love by 10cc. The backing vocals are recorded sibilant, but the center vocal is not. Doesn't matter what headphones you use because the timbre of those backing vocals were butchered by the microphone/mix on purpose. Imagine a headphone that causes that same coloration, but to everything in the mid range. That's "bright" or sibilance some call it. It's simply an exaggerated peak somewhere in the upper frequencies.

 

[mjstealey]

If you're someone who's sensitive to treble peaks and measurable resonance/ringing then don't bother. The He1k series headphones are the best example I've found in this hobby of the genetic lottery. They have fantastic resolution and massive staging, but the treble oddities of that ear cup design butcher the timbre of every instrument played. Some people's brains cancel out that resonance, but mine does not. Also, I owned that headphone for over a year and tried it on multiple amps and sources. Nothing can fix the resonance built into that design. It's actually one of the reasons I'm glad Tungsten exists now. You get nearly the same technicalities, almost as big of a stage, with the best balanced treble in the business, and you can have it at the same price. You just have to be patient lol.

I found that using ginormous hybrid pads helped in my case, and really enjoy how the MJ3 and HE1000se pair together.
To be fair I also have a Lokius in the chain if anything gets too hot, but often just leave the upper frequencies alone.

laptop USB --> Singxer SU-6 --> Gungnir MB A2 --> Lokius --> MJ3 --> HE1000se

Using NtraX pads at the moment, but ZMF is now also making pads for the egg shaped Hifiman lineup. Haven't tried them yet, but ZMF generally does excellent pad work.

 

[betula]

I didn't think the term "bright" was still up for debate

Not everyone has the same level of knowledge and experience. These discussions are more beneficial than simply looking up the glossary.

 

[Melineous]

I found that using ginormous hybrid pads helped in my case, and really enjoy how the MJ3 and HE1000se pair together.
To be fair I also have a Lokius in the chain if anything gets too hot, but often just leave the upper frequencies alone.

laptop USB --> Singxer SU-6 --> Gungnir MB A2 --> Lokius --> MJ3 --> HE1000se

Using NtraX pads at the moment, but ZMF is now also making pads for the egg shaped Hifiman lineup. Haven't tried them yet, but ZMF generally does excellent pad work.

Yeah, I shouldn't have said "nothing" because pads make a crazy big difference to headphones, and I never tried to save that headphone with pad changes. One word of warning though. I bought ZMF pads for my Susvara and they are incredibly annoying to attach and remove because the plastic tabs are so small and stiff. Once they're on they sound great and stay in place though.

 

[Rhodey]

If the HEKse isn’t a bright headphone then what would one consider bright? The DT1990 was bright and harsh IMO. The HEK is definitely better all around but it’s definitely a bright headphone.
It wasn’t terrible while listening but afterwards it caused me discomfort. And you can totally hear the extension in the upper FR and it’s brighter. And this was off a tube amp as well.
Don’t have this issue with the Hd800S, Susvara, Utopia, etc.
If you can’t hear above 14k then not many headphones will be considered bright. Unless there’s a peak somewhere under 14k that’s giving you an issue. But that’s not always bright but more peaks that cause the problem.

 

[quawn0418]

If the HEKse isn’t a bright headphone then what would one consider bright? The DT1990 was bright and harsh IMO. The HEK is definitely better all around but it’s definitely a bright headphone.
It wasn’t terrible while listening but afterwards it caused me discomfort. And you can totally hear the extension in the upper FR and it’s brighter. And this was off a tube amp as well.
Don’t have this issue with the Hd800S, Susvara, Utopia, etc.
If you can’t hear above 14k then not many headphones will be considered bright. Unless there’s a peak somewhere under 14k that’s giving you an issue. But that’s not always bright but more peaks that cause the problem.

I found the DT1990 to be very harsh as well, and while i haven’t heard the HEK i find the Arya Organic spot on for my ears, they can get hot depending on the recording, but it’s never overly piercing. Although i will choose not to listen to certain songs because of the shrill. I find the treble rather unforgiving. Which is fine by me lol

 

[Slackaveli]

I'm starting to appreciate well done and extended treble now, but then again my hearing cuts about 14k so maybe that's why I don't fine hifiman treble or the meze 109s to bright lol.

Same boat- i hear to 13.5-14hz region. It depends on the track but airy, ethereal treble is wonderful- as long as it's not sibilant.

 

[Slackaveli]

I found that using ginormous hybrid pads helped in my case, and really enjoy how the MJ3 and HE1000se pair together.
To be fair I also have a Lokius in the chain if anything gets too hot, but often just leave the upper frequencies alone.

laptop USB --> Singxer SU-6 --> Gungnir MB A2 --> Lokius --> MJ3 --> HE1000se

Using NtraX pads at the moment, but ZMF is now also making pads for the egg shaped Hifiman lineup. Haven't tried them yet, but ZMF generally does excellent pad work.

damn, those pads are awesome

 

[MindBreak]

Well..., I just placed my order for my Atrium LTD 2024 /w Canare wood and a 3rd pair of pads to pad roll. Now the waiting game begins. Looking forward to hooking them up to my Mjolnir 3.