[Kiwiandapple]

Hello head-fiers, 
 
Thank you for any help that you can provide. Since I really have a hard time to find some solid alternatives that have good reviews. 
I'm very lucky and a friend of mine, who I helped building a recording, gaming, streaming PC for.. of which he had a budget of €4.000 for just the PC & €1.000 for peripherals. Long story short, I got everything that he needed for a little over €3.000 and he's extremely happy with it.  
As a thank you, I could pick anything I wanted that is reasonably priced. When I mentioned the Schiit Modi & Magni, he had no problem with this at all. I mean, I saved him a lot of money since he wanted to buy some pre-built crap.. So here I am! 
 

1. Budget: ~ €300 / £260 / $338 (USD)
2. Headphones used: Sennheiser HD598 & Beyerdynamic DT770 (250Ohm)
3. Music preference: I listen to a lot of music; mostly progressive, power, celtic, folk & black metal (Ne Obliviscaris, Ensiferum, Eluveitie). But also love classical, trailer, country, celtic music as well (Bach, Two Steps from Hell, The Railers, Adrian von Ziegler). Instrumental is a big key here.  I sometimes listen to electronic, chillstep music as well. NO hardcore, hip-hop, rap, etc. 
4. Games: I do play CS:GO, as well as some other games where sound isn't very important. CS:GO is the most important game in terms of positional tracking. 
5. Country: I live in Belgium, so preferably a shop inside Europe. Since then I don't have to pay import taxes.
6. Current sound source: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty (sound card) in a Asus Z77 Sabertooth motherboard. 

 
So in short, I simply want to kick my headphones into a new level. Allow them to produce the best possible sound that they can. I absolutely love both headphones and generally use my HD598s for gaming, metal & classical music.  
I use the DT770s more for electronic, chillstep & outdoor use. My MP3 player is able to just about power them.. but I need to crank the volume up. I've considered a portal AMP, but just can't bother with this since I don't use them enough to justify the cost and I'm very happy with  them regardless of the lack of power. 
 
Right now, I use a sound card. Yes I know.. not great. But I bought it 5 years ago, when I was clueless about sound and just bought it because I was a stereotype gamer that had no clue.  
I actually can't find any freaking data sheet with all the correct specs. I really can't find it, sorry.  
It works well enough, despite the "hate" towards most sound cards on every audio forum. Both the HD598 & DT770 sound great when using it and objectively speaking (I did blind tests) I could tell it apart from my on-board audio in the rear of my motherboard. 
 
Anyway, so I did a bit of googling and I've heard a lot of great things about Schiit. I've read multiple reviews of the Modi & Magni (2) and they seem to be a great buy. Especially for the money.  
I am just curious if there is anything else that comes close to the quality and/or sound signature for my needs that is in the same price range? Or cheaper.. 
 
Also, I can't for the love of god decide on the Modi & Magni 2 & the Uber versions. I don't know if it would be worth that, relatively high increase in price for the Ubers?  
The Modi 2 is currently out of stock on the European webshop. So I have some more time to do research. I was about to buy the combo and just be happy, but now that I have more time, I thought it would be a good idea to ask around. 
 
So I currently found: 
 

1. FiiO E10K - Very highly praised value option. I know that both of these would be "less" in quality, compared to the Modi & Magni, but still pretty good? 
2. Schiit Fulla - The also popular value option. Is there any noticeable difference between these 2? (FiiO E10K & Fulla Schiit)
3. Little Dot MK2 - Would I need a DAC with this? If so, any recommendations? I've always been interested in tubes, but never really thought I had the budget for it. The tube AMP from Schiit isn't reviewed that amazingly well.. but the Little Dot seems to be very well. 

 
I can't seem to find much else with solid reviews. 

Thank you for reading & helping me out.  
If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask! 

 

[liquidzoo]

If positional sound is important, you can always get a better soundcard with a built in amp.

The Soundblaster Z series is pretty highly regarded, even here.

Don't use the front connections for the card, always plug the headphones into the back.

 

[Kiwiandapple]

If positional sound is important, you can always get a better soundcard with a built in amp.

The Soundblaster Z series is pretty highly regarded, even here.

Don't use the front connections for the card, always plug the headphones into the back.

 
Positional sound is not extremely important and I want to get rid of a sound card. I will eventually upgrade to an ITX system, so won't have space for a sound card.  
I absolutely want an external DAC/AMP. I'm just not certain if the Schiit Modi & Magni are "worth it". If there are any alternatives that are better.  
Just looking for a nice warm, clean sound signal for my music when using the HD598s & DT770s. 

I stated that I use the rear connections of my motherboard & sound card to blind test to tell them apart. I don't even have my front panel audio jacks cable plugged in anyway, I don't use my front audio ports at all.  

 

[DangerClose]

Add the Monoprice Desktop Amp to the list.  I doubt its DAC is as good as the Modi Magni, but the amps are both competitive, other than the Mono has an output of 10 ohms that isn't recommended for low-ohm headphones, but it's not like it's a 40 or 100 ohm output like various popular sound cards and other amps have that people tend not to complain about. 

 

[PurpleAngel]

   
Positional sound is not extremely important and I want to get rid of a sound card. I will eventually upgrade to an ITX system, so won't have space for a sound card.  
I absolutely want an external DAC/AMP. I'm just not certain if the Schiit Modi & Magni are "worth it". If there are any alternatives that are better.  
Just looking for a nice warm, clean sound signal for my music when using the HD598s & DT770s. 

I stated that I use the rear connections of my motherboard & sound card to blind test to tell them apart. I don't even have my front panel audio jacks cable plugged in anyway, I don't use my front audio ports at all.  

 
Schiit Fulla USB/DAC/amp ($90 dollars) would give you audio quality improvement for a good price.
For the kind of cash you would spend for the Schiit stack, you could get better sounding headphones (for music).

 

[cel4145]

This is a great alternative to the Modi 2/Magni 2 Uber: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB112014/NFB112014EN.htm. Might price out similarly for you with exchange rates (don't know).

 

[Kiwiandapple]

   
Schiit Fulla USB/DAC/amp ($90 dollars) would give you audio quality improvement for a good price.
For the kind of cash you would spend for the Schiit stack, you could get better sounding headphones (for music).

Hmm, which headphones would you recommend for my music? I am extremely happy with my Sennheiser HD598 for my music and the DT770 Pro's are really nice as well. 
I've been looking at the AKG K702/K7XX a bit, but don't think it will really make a big difference.  

Feel free to suggest something & I'll have a look, but it's going to need something special for me to really get a 3rd pair of headphones! I really just want to improve my sound source more than anything.  
 
 

This is a great alternative to the Modi 2/Magni 2 Uber: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB112014/NFB112014EN.htm. Might price out similarly for you with exchange rates (don't know).

 
That's a funky website. If I'm correct this DAC/AMP is 325 USD + 37 USD shipping to Belgium. That's 362 USD or 321 EUR.. without import tax, which is going to be an other extra 32 EUR.. Which would make the total 353 EUR. Perhaps a bit too much, not certain.. 
Can you tell me a bit more about this Audio-GD company & the NFB11? 

  Add the Monoprice Desktop Amp to the list.  I doubt its DAC is as good as the Modi Magni, but the amps are both competitive, other than the Mono has an output of 10 ohms that isn't recommended for low-ohm headphones, but it's not like it's a 40 or 100 ohm output like various popular sound cards and other amps have that people tend not to complain about. 

 
I am trying to find this one in any European shops, but so far no luck. I would really prefer to shop in Europe if possible.  
Also,  not sure if the output of 10 ohms will have a big impact on my Sennheisers that are "only" 50 Ohms? So not sure if they fall in the 'low-ohm headphones" sector?  
I also don't completely understand what this even matters? As far as I am aware, this means that you "lose" about 10 ohms of "sound/music"? Or.. am I mistaking this? 

I am a complete hobo when it comes to the technical aspects of DAC/AMPs hence why I'm here. 
 

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Thank you all very much for replying!  

 

[DangerClose]

 
I am trying to find this one in any European shops, but so far no luck. I would really prefer to shop in Europe if possible.  
Also,  not sure if the output of 10 ohms will have a big impact on my Sennheisers that are "only" 50 Ohms? So not sure if they fall in the 'low-ohm headphones" sector?  
I also don't completely understand what this even matters? As far as I am aware, this means that you "lose" about 10 ohms of "sound/music"? Or.. am I mistaking this? 

Some people say there's "a rule of 1/8" for ohms matching.  That a headphone's ohms should be 8x or more than an amp's output jack.  So an amp with a headphone jack output of 10 ohms may alter the sound of a headphone of less than 80 ohms.  I'd say it's a thing to consider but is often overblown, especially if you use EQ to tweak your audio.  Many people buy various amps to purposely alter the sound anyway.  
 
The sound you hear is the combination of the headphones, DAC, amp, and even other things, together, so there's a synergy to all of it.  But until you get to the point where relatively minor tweaks matter, it's something to consider, but not necessarily worry about.
 
Various popular sound cards have output jacks of 40, 70, 100 ohms, and there's not many people complaining.  One of my 5.1 receivers has a headphone jack rated over 500 ohms.  Now that can do some interesting things to the sound.  
 
If you said what sound card you currently use, I missed it.  (edit: oh, x-fi ti fatality.) If it's a typical sound card, it doesn't have an amp on it.  So basically any amp should make your headphones sound noticeably better.  HD598 doesn't usually "need" an amp, but an amp should still help.  And you'd likely need an amp if you get different headphones anyway.  So, the HD598 is an above average headphone, and if you like it, you have half of the equation done already.  

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Hmm, which headphones would you recommend for my music? I am extremely happy with my Sennheiser HD598 for my music and the DT770 Pro's are really nice as well. 
I've been looking at the AKG K702/K7XX a bit, but don't think it will really make a big difference.  

Feel free to suggest something & I'll have a look, but it's going to need something special for me to really get a 3rd pair of headphones! I really just want to improve my sound source more than anything.  

 
For now just get the Schiit Fulla.
Upgrading headphones is some thing that can be done at a later date and after a much discussion.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwiandapple /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Hmm, which headphones would you recommend for my music? I am extremely happy with my Sennheiser HD598 for my music and the DT770 Pro's are really nice as well. 
I've been looking at the AKG K702/K7XX a bit, but don't think it will really make a big difference.  

 

TheHD598 and DT770 have fairly high sensitivity and not too high nor too low impedance, so they're easy to drive. Upstream components typically do not improve the output a lot compared to a headphone like the K7-- series which has lower sensitivity or the HD6x0/580/800 which have 300ohm impedance (or the Beyers with 600ohms), which tend to demand more from the amp. As for DACs, barring significant differences in some parameters - like significantly lower output voltage in one amp that forces the amp to work hard enough to sound different, if not an altogether different response (like rolled off at either end) - you only really get small differences in imaging precision.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwiandapple /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

That's a funky website.

 

They keep costs down with visible screw heads on the chassis of their products (unlike for example Shanling and Cayin that sometimes try to hide them), removing the middlemen (who need to pay for warehouse and sometimes store floor space, plus make their own profits), and also web designers.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwiandapple /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Can you tell me a bit more about this Audio-GD company & the NFB11? 

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/624517/audio-gd-nfb-11-32-nfb-11-2014-delivery-impression-thread

http://www.head-fi.org/t/524263/audio-gd-nfb-12

http://www.head-fi.org/t/624518/audio-gd-nfb-15-1-delivery-impression-thread

http://www.head-fi.org/t/611396/new-audio-gd-nfb-16-class-a-acss-portable-dac-amp

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwiandapple /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

 

I am trying to find this one in any European shops, but so far no luck. I would really prefer to shop in Europe if possible.  

 

Your problem there is that you're not utilizing comparative advantage. A Chinese firm needs to make China-level profits for its owner (unless it's mass market, in which case the revenues come from volume production even with slim margins per unit), and pay only China-level wages for the factory workers. At most you'll only make use of the latter, because a European firm will need to take into account the cost of living in Europe for its owner's profit and the HQ staff's wages, even if they utilize a factory in China. And then there's the middlemen that firms like AudioGD bypass - they have to pay European costs for rent (which takes care of the landlord's European cost of living) of the warehouse space if not also store floor space, plus European wages for the staff. Similar thing with Monoprice - they get super cheap Chinese products, some made with better parts (or they have them customized for their own line with better parts), and in some cases they get products that are already being manufactured for another firm, like Fiio (and Dayton). The Monoprice headphone amp is essentially the E9 with some modifications.

 

Now, if you really prefer European products and with a lot of performance, you have to pay. The same way one pays for a Boxster GT4 made in Stuttgart that you buy in Europe over, say, a Camaro sharing the engine block and non-performance related parts with trucks made in I don't remember where they make these now but then you buy it in the contiguous 48 with aggressive bank financing schemes, you have to shell out money for a Meier DACcord+Classic (made in China, but they're made by a high-end Chinese brand, Shanling) or Violectric HPA V180 with the optional USB DAC (I think these are still made in Europe).

 

The cheapest you can get in Europe would be the O2+ODAC made by Head-N-HiFi in Switzerland, then maybe some Musical Fidelity product with a crippling design flaw (the entry level ones in bubble packs had very high gain, the new ones fixed that but not the high output impedance). Past that and you save up for Meier or Violectric if you want more of your money staying in EU's economy (or any other country in Europe), or you a bit less of it in the form of import taxes by ordering from AudioGD.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwiandapple /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Also,  not sure if the output of 10 ohms will have a big impact on my Sennheisers that are "only" 50 Ohms? So not sure if they fall in the 'low-ohm headphones" sector?  
I also don't completely understand what this even matters? As far as I am aware, this means that you "lose" about 10 ohms of "sound/music"? Or.. am I mistaking this? 

I am a complete hobo when it comes to the technical aspects of DAC/AMPs hence why I'm here. 

 

If the output impedance of the amplifier is too high relative to the load impedance (ie the headphone), the damping factor goes down.  That essentially means the amp is less in control of the driver movement, hence more distortion. Whether it boosts the bass making it boomier than normal or reducing it but still producing indistinct notes will vary from one headphone to the next. Overall it isn't exactly rare for people to get a new headphone amp and have a lot of things improve only to end up making it worse in some other way, or at least it wasn't so rare before but now a lot of amps at least have been designed with less than 2ohms output impedance. Dinosaur amp manufacturers of course will stick to high impedance, too high gain, crap analogue potentiometers...

 

 

 

[Currawong]

@ProtegeManiac Audio-gd are only making the NFB-11 in the small form factor now as far as I can see. 
 
@Kiwiandapple  If you do get a Schiit amp, I'd get the Vali 2 and then find a better tube than the stock one. I reckon it's worth the ~$200 it would end up costing, even if you get better headphones down the line. 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  @ProtegeManiac Audio-gd are only making the NFB-11 in the small form factor now as far as I can see. 

 
I didn't really notice that the newer ones were significantly smaller 

 

[buyao]

Couldn't go wrong with Schiit.
 
With that being said, if you want to look for some alternative options, some Chinese companies are known for budget DAC/AMP combo as well.
Notably, the previously mentioned audio-gd and Aune (X1S and T1) both have some pretty good entry models.

 

[Kiwiandapple]

 
If you said what sound card you currently use, I missed it.  (edit: oh, x-fi ti fatality.) If it's a typical sound card, it doesn't have an amp on it.  So basically any amp should make your headphones sound noticeably better.  HD598 doesn't usually "need" an amp, but an amp should still help.  And you'd likely need an amp if you get different headphones anyway.  So, the HD598 is an above average headphone, and if you like it, you have half of the equation done already.  

 
Alright, awesome to hear. Thank you! 

Now I have to decide what AMP & DAC I'll get! 
 

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They keep costs down with visible screw heads on the chassis of their products (unlike for example Shanling and Cayin that sometimes try to hide them), removing the middlemen (who need to pay for warehouse and sometimes store floor space, plus make their own profits), and also web designers.

 

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Your problem there is that you're not utilizing comparative advantage. A Chinese firm needs to make China-level profits for its owner (unless it's mass market, in which case the revenues come from volume production even with slim margins per unit), and pay only China-level wages for the factory workers. At most you'll only make use of the latter, because a European firm will need to take into account the cost of living in Europe for its owner's profit and the HQ staff's wages, even if they utilize a factory in China. 

 
Completely understand, just found it pretty cute. I understand their whole business plan. I'm not against it at all! I respect the way they're doing business and if they provide high quality products. I don't care at all. 
 

 

If the output impedance of the amplifier is too high relative to the load impedance (ie the headphone), the damping factor goes down.  That essentially means the amp is less in control of the driver movement, hence more distortion. Whether it boosts the bass making it boomier than normal or reducing it but still producing indistinct notes will vary from one headphone to the next. Overall it isn't exactly rare for people to get a new headphone amp and have a lot of things improve only to end up making it worse in some other way, or at least it wasn't so rare before but now a lot of amps at least have been designed with less than 2ohms output impedance. Dinosaur amp manufacturers of course will stick to high impedance, too high gain, crap analogue potentiometers...

 
Thank you! That's what I wanted to know, so basically best to make sure the AMPs are designed with less than 2ohms output impedance and I'm fine.
 

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Quote:

 
For now just get the Schiit Fulla.
Upgrading headphones is some thing that can be done at a later date and after a much discussion.

 

 
@Kiwiandapple  If you do get a Schiit amp, I'd get the Vali 2 and then find a better tube than the stock one. I reckon it's worth the ~$200 it would end up costing, even if you get better headphones down the line. 

 
Okay, I am more than happy to go with the Fulla Schiit, it would absolutely be an epic upgrade as far as I can tell. But I have the possibility to get the more expensive option. 
Which would not only help  my current headphones, but would also allow me to get better headphones later and not having to worry about my sound source. 
 
So I am very happy to go for the Schiit Vali 2 & buy this set of tubes (ECC88 6DJ8) with it. According to this review that I found here on head-fi, those should sound warm & relaxed. Which is what I prefer. I think.. I haven't had much experience just yet with tubes. Are that the correct tubes? I am new to the whole tube world, so.. would need some help or guidance here as well.    
Then I can just pair it with the Modi 2 and be all set? 
 
I know that I mentioned my Sennheiser as my main headphones, but I am almost certain now that my Beyerdynamics DT770 Pro's may actually get a nice boost in quality as well. 
 

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Thank you all so much for providing me with all the information, greatly appreciated!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Thank you! That's what I wanted to know, so basically best to make sure the AMPs are designed with less than 2ohms output impedance and I'm fine.

 
I only cited 2ohms because that's where most amps are at now. It could be as high as 5 or 6ohms and it shouldn't have issues with 32ohm headphones and above, at least on just the output impedance alone.
 

 
So I am very happy to go for the Schiit Vali 2 & buy this set of tubes (ECC88 6DJ8) with it. According to this review that I found here on head-fi, those should sound warm & relaxed. Which is what I prefer. I think.. I haven't had much experience just yet with tubes. Are that the correct tubes? I am new to the whole tube world, so.. would need some help or guidance here as well.    

 
Yes, those seem to be NOS Mullards. If you can't buy just one piece as some sellers sell them in pairs, make sure that wherever you keep the other tube is a low humidity environment.
 

  Then I can just pair it with the Modi 2 and be all set? 

 
You can just pair it with the Modi2 even before you put a different tube in it.