[gibosi]

  It gets far worse than that. How many "Amperexes" are not even Amperexes, regardless of what is painted on the tube.  There are lots of fakes out there.

 
If I understand correctly, it is a little strong to call them "fakes". "Rebranding" was and is routine business practice. For example, not every tube was made by every company. The E91H, a switching tube used in early computers, was made only by Amperex, and therefore, every E91H made was an Amperex. This tube was extensively rebranded by many companies, including Telefunken, Mullard and IBM. And then you have companies like Dumont. Dumant was not in the business of making tubes. They were in the business of buying tubes from the lowest bidder, putting their name on them and selling them. In other cases, a manufacturing company may have received an order for more tubes than they could produce, so they reached out to other manufacturers to meet demand. So we see Amperex tubes made by Mullard, RCA and Mazda. We see Telefunkens made by Amperex, Sylvania and Siemens. We see Siemens made by Mullard, Toshiba and Telefunken. We see GE made by Sylvania, RCA and Mullard. And the list goes on and one. Again, this was and still is routine business practice.
 
And after all, the 6DJ8 was designed for use as a low-noise amplifier in VHF and UHF TV tuners, and in these circuits, the brand made no difference: a 6DJ8 made by Sylvania was a plugin replacement for a 6DJ8 made by Telefunken.

 

[NinjaHamster]

   
If I understand correctly, it is a little strong to call them "fakes". "Rebranding" was and is routine business practice.

 
Actually, you are not understanding correctly. I am not referring to the common practice of "rebranding" which certainly occurred.  I am talking about outright "fakes" - designed to purloin you of money. I am not aware of Amperex ever utilising another manufacturing facility and calling it an "Amperex" though there are certainly tubes made by Amperex which appear under other labels.

 

[GrindingThud]

http://www.tubemonger.com/Tesla_NOT_JJ_M_Pairs_MINT_NOS_ECC88_Tesla_Ro_nov_p/702.htm

 

[gibosi]

  Actually, you are not understanding correctly. I am not referring to the common practice of "rebranding" which certainly occurred.  I am talking about outright "fakes" - designed to purloin you of money. I am not aware of Amperex ever utilising another manufacturing facility and calling it an "Amperex" though there are certainly tubes made by Amperex which appear under other labels.

 
I still don't understand...  Amperex routinely rebranded tubes, as did Telefunken, GE and all the others. I have an "Amperex" 6DJ8 tube manufactured in Mullard's Blackburn factory. Amperex was not an autonomous and independent company. It was owned and operated by Philips, and therefore, it was not at all uncommon for Amperex labeled tubes to have been manufactured in other Philips factories. In fact, I even have an "Amperex Bugleboy" 6AV6 manufactured by RCA. Again, rebranding was standard business practice. 
 
Edit: fixed typo - 6VA6 should have been 6AV6.

 

[ThurstonX]

http://www.tubemonger.com/Tesla_NOT_JJ_M_Pairs_MINT_NOS_ECC88_Tesla_Ro_nov_p/702.htm

 
Thanks for the tip 

  Tempting...

 

[NinjaHamster]

   
I still don't understand...  Amperex routinely rebranded tubes, as did Telefunken, GE and all the others. I have an "Amperex" 6DJ8 tube manufactured in Mullard's Blackburn factory. Amperex was not an autonomous and independent company. It was owned and operated by Philips, and therefore, it was not at all uncommon for Amperex labeled tubes to have been manufactured in other Philips factories. In fact, I even have an "Amperex Bugleboy" 6AV6 manufactured by RCA. Again, rebranding was standard business practice. 
 
Edit: fixed typo - 6VA6 should have been 6AV6.

Just reverse your thinking.  Amperex was owned by Philips - and they never outsource their manufacturing to non-Philips brands ... anything which is marked as an Amperex (apart from those fakes which I mentioned), were made in a Philips-owned factory ... whether that was in Holland, the USA or Britain ... and all were done under the Philips (or "Amperex") manufacturing processes and quality control ... however, they also sold these tubes under other brand names such as "RCA" and "Siemens" - they were also marketed under the "Mazda" name, or under the names of: Valvo, R/T, RTC, Miniwatt, Dario, Philips, and Adzam.  However, my point is that the REVERSE is not true ... There are no genuine Amperex tubes manufactured by Sylvania, GE, Raytheon, Lorenz etc. The Amperex you have could very well have been manufactured in Mullard's Blackburn factory ... but it IS an Amperex - made to the specifications of Amperex - not a "rebranded" Mullard ... Here are some details on this particular partnership ... 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullard#Partnership_with_Philips
 
You'll note that by 1927, this company was ENTIRELY owned by Philips ... and hence the "Amperex" tubes it produced were genuine.  You could then argue that the "Mullard" tubes it then produced were "fake", but that would be a semantic "sleight of hand".  The Mullard tubes were made by Philips, but were not branded as Amperex, and clearly have different sonic qualities ... 

 

[gibosi]

  Just reverse your thinking.  Amperex was owned by Philips - and they never outsource their manufacturing to non-Philips brands ... anything which is marked as an Amperex (apart from those fakes which I mentioned), were made in a Philips-owned factory ... whether that was in Holland, the USA or Britain ... and all were done under the Philips (or "Amperex") manufacturing processes and quality control ... however, they also sold these tubes under other brand names such as "RCA" and "Siemens" - they were also marketed under the "Mazda" name, or under the names of: Valvo, R/T, RTC, Miniwatt, Dario, Philips, and Adzam.  However, my point is that the REVERSE is not true ... There are no genuine Amperex tubes manufactured by Sylvania, GE, Raytheon, Lorenz etc. The Amperex you have could very well have been manufactured in Mullard's Blackburn factory ... but it IS an Amperex - made to the specifications of Amperex - not a "rebranded" Mullard ... Here are some details on this particular partnership ... 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullard#Partnership_with_Philips
 
You'll note that by 1927, this company was ENTIRELY owned by Philips ... and hence the "Amperex" tubes it produced were genuine.  You could then argue that the "Mullard" tubes it then produced were "fake", but that would be a semantic "sleight of hand".  The Mullard tubes were made by Philips, but were not branded as Amperex, and clearly have different sonic qualities ... 

 
To my ears, my Blackburn-made Amperex "sounds" like a Mullard. But the 6DJ8 was intended for use as a low-noise amplifier in VHF and UHF TV tuners. They were not intended for audio. And therefore, the sonic qualities of these tubes was never a factor in their design and manufacture. Yes, I am sure that the Blackburn-made tubes and the Heerlen-made tubes were manufactured to the same UFH and VHF performance specifications, but one cannot then infer that they will "sound" the same in audio circuits. And they don't.
 
And again, I have an RCA-made 6AV6, with Amperex lettering and Bugleboy logo, packaged in an Amperex box. These tubes were a single triode, double diode design used in car radios in the 1950s and 1960s. In the 1950's, Philips did in fact manufacture 6AV6 tubes, but in the 1960's, they apparently decided that it made more business sense to cease their manufacture, procure them elsewhere and rebrand them as their own. So perhaps my RCA-made Amperex 6AV6 is not a "genuine" Amperex tube, but I don't think one can call it a "fake" either.
 
But to get back on track. When purchasing 6DJ8-type tubes for the Lyr, it is critical to pay close attention to the construction details of these tubes to help determine where and when they were made. And for tubes carrying the label of one of the Philips subsidiaries, always ask for the Philips tube codes. Cheers.

 

[NinjaHamster]

   
 
But to get back on track. When purchasing 6DJ8-type tubes for the Lyr, it is critical to pay close attention to the construction details of these tubes to help determine where and when they were made. And for tubes carrying the label of one of the Philips subsidiaries, always ask for the Philips tube codes. Cheers.

Yes - particularly for the "Bugle Boys" where the name and the "burn in" equipment was purchased by a company which is not truly representative of the Amperex brand.  One should also be wary of tubes which may be printed with the external entapments of a brand, but with a disparate internal construction. Where there is money to be made, people will seek to make money.  This is the order of things, as ugly as it might seem.  It is human nature.

 

[Delete]

Crazy how shady the tube market is. I would have never thought. Glad there are resources out there/in here that can confirm authenticity.

 

[2g2gan]

With all these confusing discussions about tube rolling I think I'll stick with stock 6bz7 tubes for now. I hate being a noob!

 

[jexby]

  With all these confusing discussions about tube rolling I think I'll stick with stock 6bz7 tubes for now. I hate being a noob!

 
 
I'm not a big rolling fan (often) myself but love the Lyr none the less.  here's what I did, bought a couple pairs of highly recommended tubes from a reputable source, and be done with it.
Visit upscale audio web site:
 
grab a pair of
 Ediswan
or
 cheaper Matus / Nationals
 
they are a significant upgrade from the stock tubes for certain and you won't drive yourself nuts on nightly comparisons between different tube pairings to music genre x,y,z.
best of tube luck to ya!

 

[Delete]

Yeah I kinda think I'm the same way. I don't want to get all caught up in technicalities and spend less time enjoying the music. A few sets of recommended tubes is cool. I'm not going to micro analyze them. Either they will sound good or they won't.

 

[Oskari]

  Amperex was owned by Philips - and they never outsource their manufacturing to non-Philips brands ...

 
Of course they did.
 

... anything which is marked as an Amperex (apart from those fakes which I mentioned), were made in a Philips-owned factory ... whether that was in Holland, the USA or Britain ... and all were done under the Philips (or "Amperex") manufacturing processes and quality control ...

 
Nonsense.
 

There are no genuine Amperex tubes manufactured by Sylvania, GE, Raytheon, Lorenz etc.

 
Well, maybe not by Lorenz, but there certainly are tubes that were sourced from the big US manufacturers and rebranded by Amperex. Think about tube types that were common in the US but perhaps not made at all by Philips companies.
 

The Amperex you have could very well have been manufactured in Mullard's Blackburn factory ... but it IS an Amperex - made to the specifications of Amperex - not a "rebranded" Mullard ...

 
Please. It is entirely a rebranded Mullard tube, just like the Dutch-made ones are rebranded Philips tubes.
 

You could then argue that the "Mullard" tubes it then produced were "fake", but that would be a semantic "sleight of hand".

 
Eh? Mullard-made Mullard-branded tubes aren't fakes — nor "fakes" — how could they? How does one even get such twisted ideas?
 

The Mullard tubes were made by Philips, but were not branded as Amperex, and clearly have different sonic qualities ... 

 
Mullards were made by Mullard, Valvos were made by Valvo, Adzams were made MBLE, Philips tubes were made by Philips, Amperexes were made by Amperex, etc.
 
Additionally, they all sold (and branded as their own) tubes made by other companies, both within the Philips group and outside of it.
 
P.S. Siemens was not (and is not) a subsidiary of Philips. The two did, however, co-operate.

 

[gibosi]

  With all these confusing discussions about tube rolling I think I'll stick with stock 6bz7 tubes for now. I hate being a noob!

 

Yeah I kinda think I'm the same way. I don't want to get all caught up in technicalities and spend less time enjoying the music. A few sets of recommended tubes is cool. I'm not going to micro analyze them. Either they will sound good or they won't.

 
I have purchased more than 400 tubes from various eBay vendors with only a couple sour experiences, so if you are interested in trying out some different tubes, I would encourage you to jump right on in!  As long as you are reasonably careful, the water is great!
 
On the other hand, if you are content with the stock tubes, enjoy your music and consider yourself blessed. And your wallet will thank you. lol

 

[Delete]

I will give a good listen to my stock tubes for now. I'm building a short list of recommended tubes then I will purchase 3-4 sets about 3-4 weeks apart from each other. I think I will do a good, better, best setup. Probably with a budget of $500-600 for 3-4 matched pairs for the Lyr an a few singles for my other devices.
400 tubes is a nice collection and maybe one day I may get I to it like that but it seems kind of excessive. I have a decent size DVD collection and I sit and look for 30 minutes trying to pick one out. When it comes to music you now have to take many things int consideration, what music, what source, what cans, what amp and now what tubes. Can take me an hour to make that decision and set it up. Now I cut my listening time down dramatically.
Maybe when I have more personal time I will get into it more.
I appreciate all the helpful input from everyone. This community is very helpful and supportive