[billerb1]

  I think you have it... I would add that euphonic sound = perfect tonality. The ability of the tube to "flesh out" all tones and reproduce them without pushing anything forward, or misrepresenting anything. I personally believe if this is happening, soundstaging, imaging, and atmosphere all fall into place... I think it's very hard to have width and depth represented properly without tonal balance. Which power tubes are you rolling in the WA2 with those beautiful pinched waist tubes? Just wondering as I also do my most of my listening with the WA2.

Interesting evolution on the power tubes on the WA2.  When I ordered it from Woo I told Jack Woo to keep the stock tubes and traded for a couple other considerations.  I already had in my mind top of the line 6922's from my time with my Lyr, which I ultimately sold.  I have been a huge fan of the early to mid-60's Philips Miniwatt 188CC SQ's and they were my preferred driver tube until the pinched waists, although I still swap them out from  time to time and am never disappointed.  As far as the power tubes, it seemed like most swore by the Tung Sol 5998's and that's what I ran with  from the beginning.  I loved them and still have a pair.  But a fellow Head-Fi'er badgered me into giving the Tung Sol 7236's a try and I finally did.  At first I wasn't impressed at all.  They to me didn't do any one individual thing as well as the 5998's.  But I stayed with them to give myself a chance to hear what he heard in them and it became a classic case of the whole being greater than the sum  of it's parts.  There was a texture and an overall 'elegance' that the 7236's provided to me that the 5998's didn't in the total presentation.  It started to seem to me like in comparison the 5998's were 'over-powering' the WA2, thinning out what it could do.  And once the 7236's sucked me into their richer, blacker sound I haven't been able to leave...lol, even though I've tried !!  And as a way of intensifying that "7236" sound I ultimately switched rectifiers from RFT EZ80's to a pair of 1967 military issue Brimar EZ81's.  That's my current set and I am very happy with it.  Total engagement. 
How about you?

 

[Mr Rick]

  So what are you doing here?

He is here to tap into the vast knowledge pool available to him, by contributors to this thread. Nothing wrong with that is there? LOL

 

[rb2013]

  He is here to tap into the vast knowledge pool available to him, by contributors to this thread. Nothing wrong with that is there? LOL

No - but calling the Russian tubes crap is offensive to many here - including me.  I have Russian tubes that blow the Philips E188CCand E88CC away - far away.
 

 

[mikoss]

...There was a texture and an overall 'elegance' that the 7236's provided to me that the 5998's didn't in the total presentation.  It started to seem to me like in comparison the 5998's were 'over-powering' the WA2, thinning out what it could do.  And once the 7236's sucked me into their richer, blacker sound I haven't been able to leave...lol, even though I've tried !!  And as a way of intensifying that "7236" sound I ultimately switched rectifiers from RFT EZ80's to a pair of 1967 military issue Brimar EZ81's.  That's my current set and I am very happy with it.  Total engagement. 
How about you?

lol hilarious. Just pulled out the Tung Sol 5998's and put the 7236's back in. They're smoother, and seem to have more elegance and less bulk... mine are the (cheap) Sylvania 7236's. Still rockin' the (very cheap) Ei EZ80's...
 
ty @Oskari for verifying those Russian tubes from #3 and #4.
 
Would love to hear impressions from anyone rolling Valvo Holland CCa's, or Hamburg tubes in their Lyrs 

 

[mikoss]

 
No - but calling the Russian tubes crap is offensive to many here - including me.  I have Russian tubes that blow the Philips E188CCand E88CC away - far away.
 

Oh, my apologies! I didn't mean they sounded bad, I meant they were frauds. Sorry @rb2013 

 

[billerb1]

  Hello all you Schiit fans. I don't own a Lyr, but I am an avid 6dj8/6922 tube roller. Have some questions for all the tube pros... these ones have stumped me a bit. Props to anyone who can give me some decent answers!
 
 
Question #1 - Valvo tubes. Who has heard actual "Valvo" (or, I assume Philips) produced tubes from the Hamburg plant? Not Holland tubes... actual Hamburgs from Factory code "D". And how do these compare to Heerlen tubes? http://www.ebay.com/itm/161570910216
 
Question #2 - Also related to Valvo... who has heard Holland CCa tubes? I find it very odd to find a Valvo branded, Heerlen produced "CCa" tube. As far as I was aware, there were no Heerlen CCa tubes, but I guess I am wrong. I just bought a Valvo CCa with a delta date code. Also, why didn't Amperex/Philips mark any tubes as CCa's? Was this a Siemens/Telefunken/Valvo thing? Why stop at 7308/E188CC? I am extremely interested in hearing this Heerlen CCa... I assume it will sound identical to a Philips Miniwatt E188CC from Heerlen. http://www.ebay.com/itm/311202184000
 
Question #3 - Did Amperex ever produce a 6dj8 tube with a "saucer" style getter? Or is this Russian crap with fradulent Amperex screened onto it? I suspect it's Russian crap, just wondering as I've seen a couple eBay sellers trying to pass it off as 1950-something Amperex tubes... http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Style-AMPEREX-6DJ8-ECC88-Fat-Pinched-Bottom-VACUUM-TUBE-Cup-Getter-356-/231078581807
 
Question #4 - Related to Q3, but this appears to me to be Russian crap... being passed off as a CEI CCa... looks like lots of flashing+saucer getter = crap. http://www.ebay.com/itm/CCa-TUBE-MADE-IN-HOLLAND-GOOD-USE-ONE-GOLD-PINS-/271764551377
 
Question #5 - Alright... so the "best" tubes to my ears are the Philips Miniwatt Holland E188CC's. I have yet to hear a Telefunken tube, so should I spend the $400 on a matched pair of E188CC Tele's... or just stick with the Miniwatts? @billerb1 might know the answer to this one... I love the extension and imaging of the Miniwatts... but gah, Tele's are so expensive.
 
Thanks everyone for your time and appreciate any insight into these questions. (I bought the tubes from Q1 and Q2... just waiting on delivery and I will see how they sound).

 
Hmmm, that's a lot of questions and I'm old and have very limited short-term memory.
I HAVE had one pair of Valvo E88CC's from the Hamburg plant and many pairs of Philips Miniwatt E188CC (and E88CC) and Valvo E88CC (red and white label) from the Heerlen plant.  Don't know if it's representative but to me that one pair of Valvo's  from Hamburg were harsher.  Still that huge midrange you identify with the Heerlen Miniwatts but these were kind of edgy and the instrument separation wasn't as good.
I've seen those Heerlen Valvo Cca's advertised but have never heard them.  I will be very interested in your take on them.
I've owned a pair of 1963 Telefunken E88CC's and they were a beautiful tube...to me almost delicate in their beauty.  Very balanced.  Very musical and tonally very pure.  Never heard anything like them for comparison.  GREAT for acoustic !! To some, and ultimately to me, they lacked a certain impact that I look for.  You may love them...but they are a different animal than your current preference, the Miniwatts.  If you're patient I'm pretty sure you can get a great pair for well under the dollar amount  you mentioned.  I'd never pay that much for them.
 
Cheers!

 

[rb2013]

  Oh, my apologies! I didn't mean they sounded bad, I meant they were frauds. Sorry @rb2013 

Hey sorry took it the wrong way - this counterfeiting thing really sucks.  Those Amperex's were probably low cost '80s - why pay more to erase and re-stamp.
 
The weirdest were the '78's Voskhods I bought from Brent Jesse stamped Westinghouse 7308's on Ebay (he did fully disclose they were Russian).  But Westinghouse our largest nuclear warhead producer buying Soviet tubes to re-label - very strange!
 

 

[billerb1]

  lol hilarious. Just pulled out the Tung Sol 5998's and put the 7236's back in. They're smoother, and seem to have more elegance and less bulk... mine are the (cheap) Sylvania 7236's. Still rockin' the (very cheap) Ei EZ80's...
 
ty @Oskari for verifying those Russian tubes from #3 and #4.
 
Would love to hear impressions from anyone rolling Valvo Holland CCa's, or Hamburg tubes in their Lyrs 

mikoss,
You can get NOS Tung Sol 7236 matched pairs from vacuumtubes.net for around a hundred bucks (a LOT cheaper than buying them from Woo Audio)...last time I checked.  Never heard the Sylvania's.

 

[billerb1]

 
Well the issue of euphonics is as old as the debate between solid state and tubes amps - at least 40 yrs.  Euphonics is considered the unnatural overly tubey harmonic signature of a sound system.  For many euphonics is a pleasant thing and sought after.  Euphonics are considered to be partly generated by excess distortion - but of a very particular kind - called 2nd order.  This has been considered a 'pleasant' distortion -versus 3rd order that is predominate in SS amps and is considered harsh.
 
The king of 'euphonic' amp tubes is the 300B - I have owned a few of these - including the amazing sounding and looking Airtight 300B.  The tube amps using this tube sound very euphonic (depending on circuit feedback and design - SET Class A being the best).  They measure horrible on the bench for IMD and THD - but sound great.  To me their draw back is a unnaturally overripe mid-range, somewhat masked detail, and (at least in a speaker amp) flabby bass.  As compared to a well designed SS amp.  They excel in mid-range warmth and emotional conveyance.
 
So that's the backdrop.  I like the use the scale of Ying and Yang borrowed from the legendary late Harry Pearson founder of 'The Absolute Sound'.  Ying being light, airy, transparent, high in clarity and detail. I like to think of the color 'Blue".  Yang being a ripe, warm and very rich mid-range tonality. For Yang Iike to think of the color 'Red'.  So for him (and me) was the achieving of a perfect balance of the two (White).
 
Ying and Yang tonality can come in good or bad forms - depending on the implementation.
 
So it's a personal subjective thing - some folks love the Yang of euphonic sounding equipment (me for one for a long while).  Others love the Ying of light airiness and transparency (me also for some time).  It took me many years and much experimentation and listening to find the right balance.  So for me it was in the hyrid design or combining a tube pre-amp with a class A solid state amp. 
 
For me the 'Absolute Sound' is a balance between the two - a combination of a rich tonality - that isn't overly ripe and unnatural.  Coupled with a light, airy, transparency and clarity.  It took along tie to find this balance in my systems.
 
As for detail - most love it.  But some don't!  Especially if you listen to old recordings from the 20's, 30's, 40's, etc when recording technology was limited.  Some may also like less detail if it becomes a distraction for them.  Perfectly understandable.  I love detail as it contributes to an amazing holographic 3D effect, think of musical point sources radiating out into a three dimensional space.  Versus staggered flattish cardboard cutouts in a layered sound field.  The revealing of those hidden ambient clues buried deep down into the mix is what helps the ear/mind recreate this projected recording venue hologram.  Some folks prefer a smaller narrower sound stage, so this effect may be a negative for them.

So for me the Amperex's pinched waists I tried - the 6922 '59 D Getter USA and the Herleen 50's 6DJ8 D Getter where much fun.  They were the most euphonic tubes I have heard - but did it in such a fantastic way.  Their ability to convey emotion was superb!  They did lack several layers of detail and so had a much less holographic sound stage.  On the plus side the bass they produced were the most prolific and had very good definition - if not the most extended or controlled.  I have been considering adding a pair of LCD-3's to my HP arsenal - and thought these PW's would suffice with the HD800's instead.  But listening to them over time I was missing the detail of the HG's too much.  With the LCD's they would be even more overripe for me.
 
Bill - I believe you use the excellent T-1's with a Woo WA-22?  So your system and phones are different then mine - quite a bit.  I'm a musician as well - guitar player - so for me I found the Amperex PW's tonally over-rich and not natural.  I found a tube that sounded more natural in my system - but still retained the rich natural tone the HG's.
 
The Amperex '50s D getter PW's are renowned tubes and sell for $500-$600 pr - if you can find them in good working order (many are extremely microphonic).  So they are the cream of the crop.  To me, I prefer the more neutral Amperex 7308/6922 USN-CEP.
 
But really happy you found your PW's at a great price.  I know you are a huge fan of the Philips/Miniwatt/Valvo's - are the Amperex PW's your new #1 favorite?
 
PS Bottom line - I guess it's all up to an individuals personal taste.  And part of the reason I decided to share these amazing HG's.  To see if others with Lyr's would have a similar take on these.  So far the folks who have heard them or their sister '74's have been universally positive.

Certainly always a matter of individual tastes.  And semantics.  Describing what you hear is as big a challenge as figuring out what sound you like.  To me nothing could sound more "natural" than what the Pinched Waists deliver to me.  You get that with your HG's.  Different ears, different systems, different definition of 'detail.'  It's all good.  I'm not trying to sell what I like as being the best for anyone.  That would make no sense. 
To answer your question, yeah the P.Waists have taken over as my #1's but I still swap them out for my old #1 Minis often and they never disappoint me.  I love those damn Minis almost as much as you love your HG's.
Cheers!

 

[billerb1]

 
No - but calling the Russian tubes crap is offensive to many here - including me.  I have Russian tubes that blow the Philips E188CCand E88CC away - far away.
 

LOL

 

[Guidostrunk]

What a thread. This is by far the most informative thread I've read on here. Can't thank all of you tube vets enough for all your contributions to this forum.

Cheers!

 

[rb2013]

 
Certainly always a matter of individual tastes.  And semantics.  Describing what you hear is as big a challenge as figuring out what sound you like.  To me nothing could sound more "natural" than what the Pinched Waists deliver to me.  You get that with your HG's.  Different ears, different systems, different definition of 'detail.'  It's all good.  I'm not trying to sell what I like as being the best for anyone.  That would make no sense. 
To answer your question, yeah the P.Waists have taken over as my #1's but I still swap them out for my old #1 Minis often and they never disappoint me.  I love those damn Minis almost as much as you love your HG's.
Cheers!

Why did you sell your Lyr and buy the Woo? 

  Didn't you like the sound of the Lyr?  I went the other way LOL! - we do indeed seem to have very different tastes.
 
Cheers!

 

 

[rb2013]

What a thread. This is by far the most informative thread I've read on here. Can't thank all of you tube vets enough for all your contributions to this forum.

Cheers!

+1

 

[billerb1]

 
Why did you sell your Lyr and buy the Woo? 

  Didn't you like the sound of the Lyr?  I went the other way LOL! - we do indeed seem to have very different tastes.
 
Cheers!

 

Yeah we hear things differently.  I liked my Lyr a lot.  I love my WA2.  To me more meat on the bone everywhere I looked.  Which Woo did you have Bob...I forget. 

 

[lekoross]

+1

+2. I have learned so much not only from reading the thread, but also the longtime tube rollers who graciously and patiently answer questions from newbies like myself - questions which have probably been asked a hundred times from those of us just beginning this journey. Shows their real love of this hobby by their willingness to share.