[Oklahoma]

Depends on what you mean. If you are referring to the 20sec muting relay it still runs. If you are referring to tube warmup then yes as the LISST don't really need a warmup period like tubes do.

 

[InsanityOne]

Hello Everyone,
 
As far as Head-Fi'ers go I would have to say that I am among the most picky when it comes to feedback from my system. I got my Mjolnir 2 from another Head-Fi'er and it came with this amazing sounding Telefunken "White Diamond" E88CC tubes, however no matter how good they sound I just can't stand it when they hiss or crackle or "ding" when I flip any switches in the chain. This could be due to the fact that I only use really high efficiency headphones so it amplifies the noisy tubes.
 
My question to you all is, if I am looking to make my MJ2 "totally silent" would you recommend switching to the LISST tubes? I know I will probably miss some of the coloration from the Tele tubes but the inconsistency of their noise level just kills me. Anytime I hear hiss it just ruins the whole experience. 

 
Thanks!
 
- InsanityOne 

 

 

[zive]

Not sure exactly what you are describing in terms of negative "feedback". Hissing could come from anywhere in the chain and flipping the input or gain switch on the MJ2 itself will cause a momentary "click" followed by a few seconds of high-frequency ringing. Personally I don't find this to be a big deal, but if it really irritates you, you might try unplugging your headphones when adjusting the gain or input settings on MJ2, then reconnecting them when you have your settings dialed in. LISSTs will not rectify these issues.
 
If, however, you think that the issue is microphonics within your tube (this can be tested by tapping the tubes lightly with a pencil and listening for prolonged ringing in one channel or the other) then LISSTs will resolve this issue. Even with high gain selected I can turn the volume pot all the way up with LISSTs while maintaining a completely black, hiss-free background with most headphones (high-sensitivity IEM's are another story but those should be driven in low-gain mode to avoid running into the MJ2's noisefloor). LISSTs will not exhibit microphonics so if the noise you've mentioned is caused by bumping into the MJ2 and disturbing your tubes, switching to LISSTs will solve your problem. 
 
Telefunken ECC88's have a very good reputation and many others in the MJ2 thread have reported them working well with the MJ2. It is possible that you were sold a pair of tubes that were not screened for microphonics, or worse, have reached the end of their lives. If you have access to a tube tester you can rule out the second possibility. If you just have a set of tubes that are microphonic you might try getting tube raisers from TubeMonger (which contain a damping material in their base to limit microphonics and elevate the tubes to "run cooler and last longer") or you might look into Vibrapods (sold on Amazon) to isolate your MJ2 from unwanted vibrations that can travel from the floor into the surface your amp sits on, and into your tubes. 
 
Regardless of the state of your ECC88's I think LISSTs are a good investment considering they offer some advantages (and disadvantages) relative to glass tubes and cost less than most boutique sets of tubes.
 
I hope that helps. 
Cheers!
 
P.S. I see that you are using a Power Plant, WYRD, and (presumably) balanced connection with a Gungnir. This is a very solid chain that should eliminate EMI/RFI hiss or USB-based noise. This all makes me think that as long as you have your gain properly set for the headphones you're using your ECC88's may be microphonic and require some damping. 

 

[InsanityOne]

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

  Not sure exactly what you are describing in terms of negative "feedback". Hissing could come from anywhere in the chain and flipping the input or gain switch on the MJ2 itself will cause a momentary "click" followed by a few seconds of high-frequency ringing. Personally I don't find this to be a big deal, but if it really irritates you, you might try unplugging your headphones when adjusting the gain or input settings on MJ2, then reconnecting them when you have your settings dialed in. LISSTs will not rectify these issues.
 
If, however, you think that the issue is microphonics within your tube (this can be tested by tapping the tubes lightly with a pencil and listening for prolonged ringing in one channel or the other) then LISSTs will resolve this issue. Even with high gain selected I can turn the volume pot all the way up with LISSTs while maintaining a completely black, hiss-free background with most headphones (high-sensitivity IEM's are another story but those should be driven in low-gain mode to avoid running into the MJ2's noisefloor). LISSTs will not exhibit microphonics so if the noise you've mentioned is caused by bumping into the MJ2 and disturbing your tubes, switching to LISSTs will solve your problem. 
 
Telefunken ECC88's have a very good reputation and many others in the MJ2 thread have reported them working well with the MJ2. It is possible that you were sold a pair of tubes that were not screened for microphonics, or worse, have reached the end of their lives. If you have access to a tube tester you can rule out the second possibility. If you just have a set of tubes that are microphonic you might try getting tube raisers from TubeMonger (which contain a damping material in their base to limit microphonics and elevate the tubes to "run cooler and last longer") or you might look into Vibrapods (sold on Amazon) to isolate your MJ2 from unwanted vibrations that can travel from the floor into the surface your amp sits on, and into your tubes. 
 
Regardless of the state of your ECC88's I think LISSTs are a good investment considering they offer some advantages (and disadvantages) relative to glass tubes and cost less than most boutique sets of tubes.
 
I hope that helps. 
Cheers!
 
P.S. I see that you are using a Power Plant, WYRD, and (presumably) balanced connection with a Gungnir. This is a very solid chain that should eliminate EMI/RFI hiss or USB-based noise. This all makes me think that as long as you have your gain properly set for the headphones you're using your ECC88's may be microphonic and require some damping. 

 

 
Ah my apologies, perhaps I should have been more specific. My system was previously 100% "hiss" free until a few days ago when this particular issue started. As far as microphonics go when flipping switches, etc. that is to be expected with these tubes. The ringing is short and dissipates quickly afterwards. That is not the part that is irritating me.
 
I will not dispute the reputation (or quality) of the Telefunken E88CC tubes that I have. They were purchased from Upscale Audio and I have heard good things about them as well. This pair of tubes has less than 100 hours on them and have been treated with care so I was not expecting them to exhibit issues. But to get back to the matter at hand, I should re-describe the issue I am having with the tube and how I came to discover it.
 
A few days ago I noticed an odd sound in the right channel of my Mjolnir 2. It didn't sound so much like "hissing" but rather intermittent "static" or air escaping from a vacuum, or maybe even like a soft waterfall. I assumed this was a fault with the tube so I swapped the tubes. Sure enough the same sound appeared in the left channel of my Mjolnir 2 after the swap. Is it normal for NOS tubes to be noisy like this or not? The sound is fairly inconsistent and the volume varies and pulses at times. I am new to tubes so I'm not sure what an "noisy tube" or "dying tube" sounds like to be honest.
 
I have looked at the Vibrapods before but my AVC Rack takes their place, I will definitely look into the "tube raisers" though as they seem like a neat invention. Also, I am no longer using the Wyrd but I am using a balanced connection with AudioQuest Columbia's between my Gungnir and MJ2. Overall it is totally silent system other than this odd tube issue. I am definitely considering getting a pair of LISST tubes though. I appreciate your detailed response!
 
- InsanityOne 

 

 

[zive]

Apologies for the delayed response. It sounds like you've already done a pretty thorough job of troubleshooting. I'd have to agree with your diagnosis; it sounds like you've got a bum tube, and not from being worn-out. I haven't purchased from Upscale before (though I have read good reviews of their tubes from other head-fi'ers). I can't speak personally to issues with NOS tubes because I only have stock 6BZ7s, Gold Lion 6922s, and LISSTs. That said none of these three have given me balance/noise issues (apart from the ringing when flipping switches) and judging by the glowing reviews other MJ2 users have for Tele ECC88s I suspect you've got a bad tube in spite of Upscale's QC promises.
 
It might be worth reaching out to the original purchaser to see if they will forward you a receipt so you might exchange the tube with Upscale but I would save your money with the Vibrapods if vibration isn't the likely culprit. 
 
Regardless of what comes of your Telefunkens LISSTS would probably be a good match for your 701's because they add a little bit of bass emphasis compared to the tubes that I have heard.
 
Best of luck. A properly setup MJ2 is a treat to listen to. Cheers.

 

[InsanityOne]

  Apologies for the delayed response. It sounds like you've already done a pretty thorough job of troubleshooting. I'd have to agree with your diagnosis; it sounds like you've got a bum tube, and not from being worn-out. I haven't purchased from Upscale before (though I have read good reviews of their tubes from other head-fi'ers). I can't speak personally to issues with NOS tubes because I only have stock 6BZ7s, Gold Lion 6922s, and LISSTs. That said none of these three have given me balance/noise issues (apart from the ringing when flipping switches) and judging by the glowing reviews other MJ2 users have for Tele ECC88s I suspect you've got a bad tube in spite of Upscale's QC promises.
 
It might be worth reaching out to the original purchaser to see if they will forward you a receipt so you might exchange the tube with Upscale but I would save your money with the Vibrapods if vibration isn't the likely culprit. 
 
Regardless of what comes of your Telefunkens LISSTS would probably be a good match for your 701's because they add a little bit of bass emphasis compared to the tubes that I have heard.
 
Best of luck. A properly setup MJ2 is a treat to listen to. Cheers.

 
I appreciate your response! I have since learned that the proper term for my issue is a "rushing tube." It is unfortunate that the issue appeared after the 90-day warranty period that Upscale Audio offers, but that is just a risk you take with NOS tubes I figure. I will definitely be picking up a pair of LISST tubes just for fun at some point, but maybe I will focus on replacing my bum Telefunken tube first!
 
I would have to agree with you though, a properly set up MJ2 is so much fun to listen to!
 
Thanks!
 
- InsanityOne 

 

[sc2806]

after reading all the posts, thank you for all your great insightful observation!
 
I'm using my MJ2 with the LISSTs and stock tubes, but honestly I didn't buy the MJ2 just to use it as an SS headamp.  
I do want to learn how different tubes can enhance/improve the performance.
 
- I will use my MJ2 mainly with tubes 
- I will keep the LISSTs to use as controls and, compare them against my tubes from time to time.
- the LISSTs are faster sounding from the Hi's to the Low's 
- the LISSTs are finer, more smooth on the Hi's than the stock tubes
- I don't find the LISSTs noisier or quieter than the stock tubes
- with my Audeze LCD3s , I may want to use high gain with the LISSTs if I find myself going past 12 o'clock on the volume.
- I don't find myself going over 12 o'clock with the stock tubes or, need to use high gain.
- there isn't anything that the other doesn't do well, just kinda opposite but in a good way too.
- where the the stock tubes have a little more "air" and "body" with the instruments, a more visceral interpretation
- the LISSTs have a slightly faster reaction, better transient response, better control
- the tonal character on the stock tubes have more texture, they have more harmonic layers, spatial cues hangs around longer
- the details are still all there with the LISSTs, just a little more transparent (only comparing with the stock tudes) and, starts and stops faster
- the tubes allows the music to exploit the recorded acoustics and ambience
- the LISSTs gives a better accuracy on the where and how things were recorded  
 
so far so good (I only got the MJ2 on Monday)
each mode have their strengths, no real weaknesses and,
with the endless possibilities when applying different tubes.
 
This is a good Schiit!
 
please let me know if I have understood everything correctly.   

 

[FLTWS]

  after reading all the posts, thank you for all your great insightful observation!
 
I'm using my MJ2 with the LISSTs and stock tubes, but honestly I didn't buy the MJ2 just to use it as an SS headamp.  
I do want to learn how different tubes can enhance/improve the performance.
 
- I will use my MJ2 mainly with tubes 
- I will keep the LISSTs to use as controls and, compare them against my tubes from time to time.
- the LISSTs are faster sounding from the Hi's to the Low's 
- the LISSTs are finer, more smooth on the Hi's than the stock tubes
- I don't find the LISSTs noisier or quieter than the stock tubes
- with my Audeze LCD3s , I may want to use high gain with the LISSTs if I find myself going past 12 o'clock on the volume.
- I don't find myself going over 12 o'clock with the stock tubes or, need to use high gain.
- there isn't anything that the other doesn't do well, just kinda opposite but in a good way too.
- where the the stock tubes have a little more "air" and "body" with the instruments, a more visceral interpretation
- the LISSTs have a slightly faster reaction, better transient response, better control
- the tonal character on the stock tubes have more texture, they have more harmonic layers, spatial cues hangs around longer
- the details are still all there with the LISSTs, just a little more transparent (only comparing with the stock tudes) and, starts and stops faster
- the tubes allows the music to exploit the recorded acoustics and ambience
- the LISSTs gives a better accuracy on the where and how things were recorded  
 
so far so good (I only got the MJ2 on Monday)
each mode have their strengths, no real weaknesses and,
with the endless possibilities when applying different tubes.
 
This is a good Schiit!
 
please let me know if I have understood everything correctly.   

 
I was going to write up my impressions of LISST's versus Tubes.
 
You've already done it for me and I agree with you on every point.
 
The LISST's are a bargain as far as price go and provide the ultimate in flexibility for dealing with different types of music and the variability of recorded quality.
 
 
Balanced all the way: Emotiva ERC-3 AES/EBU output > Schiit Yggdrasil > Mjolnir 2 > either SENN HD600 or Oppo PM-1
(still experimenting with a couple of cable brands and will shortly be doing in home evaluation of SENN HD800 and 800S)

 

[thefitz]

Man, I must have had some terrible tubes in my Lyr.
 
The EHX tubes it came with hissed terribly, and naive me thought 'that's just what tubes do'. Replaced it with Amperex tubes and the hiss was gone, and I thought I had an awesome set.
 
My LISST arrived yesterday and I plugged them in, and the overall harshness went down about 75%. What the hell have I been listening to? I also just got a pair of T1s and thought "damn, these are bright", but when I put in the LISST all of the unpleasant brightness went away. Those Amperex must be terrible.
 
I haven't compared the LISST to the EHX tubes, because frankly, I don't care.
 
I haven't heard the "noise" that it's supposed to have on the original Lyr, either. Granted, the highest sensitivity set of headphones I used were my HE-400. I'll try my LCD-X over the weekend.

 

[kejar31]

I got the LISST tubes for my Lyr2 about a week ago now... Have been using a pair of Gold Lions which i liked better than the stock tubes. Then this week got my pair of Ether Flow's... Obviously I used the LISST's to perform the burn in process (not wasting tube time lol)... Anyways throughout the process I have been doing a lot of critical listening.. Today decided to pop in the Gold Lions and after they warmed up I was surprised at how much I actually liked the LISST more..  I felt the glass tubes just slowed down the very fast and punchy Flows.. This speed is part of what makes the Flows sound so amazing and I really don’t want to lose any of it.. Anyways that’s my 2 cents. 

 

[FLTWS]

  I got the LISST tubes for my Lyr2 about a week ago now... Have been using a pair of Gold Lions which i liked better than the stock tubes. Then this week got my pair of Ether Flow's... Obviously I used the LISST's to perform the burn in process (not wasting tube time lol)... Anyways throughout the process I have been doing a lot of critical listening.. Today decided to pop in the Gold Lions and after they warmed up I was surprised at how much I actually liked the LISST more..  I felt the glass tubes just slowed down the very fast and punchy Flows.. This speed is part of what makes the Flows sound so amazing and I really don’t want to lose any of it.. Anyways that’s my 2 cents. 

 
I've had several months with Mjolnir 2 and either LISST's or (premium) Telefunken E88CC's listening thru HD800's (HD600's and Oppo PM-1's also). I've been a tube-o-phile since the early 70's but I'm starting to come around to this kind of SS sound.
 
Using my same handful of reference discs, the tubes ever so slightly knock the corners off the leading edges on transients and with groups of instruments the sound gets more homogenized. Imaging stays stable and images the same size, but the tubes tend to blend the instruments where the LISST's keep these instruments razor sharp as individuals and impart a more of that "it sounds real" stuff with the HD800. I also felt dynamic ease in reproduction was about the same with either which for me was an old bugaboo with SS. When the signal gets clipped in complex music with older SS, uuughly!
 
None of this fine hair splitting becomes apparent until after spending a good amount of time with each, a few days, let alone hours, just doesn't do it. I've got about 10 other pairs of 6922 tubes to roll with but I don't want to confuse things at this point. I can swap out the Tele's and LISST's in about 3 minutes leaving the rest of the chain on so I don't experience any aural lapse due to time between. I use balanced cabling only and when I compare headphones all I have to do is pause the cd transport and unplug / plug the phones I'm comparing. Never heard a tick let alone a pop doing this even with the volume left at it's previous position.
 
Based on my experience with the LISST's I've now got a Raggy on order, but because of the back order status recently I may have to wait to have them ship it until mid Sept as I've  got a long holiday weekend coming up and I've got a fishing trip I leave for at the end of next week and I don't want it banging around in the back of a FEDX truck for 2  weeks being kicked from corner to corner as new deliveries move on and off. On the plus side that may coincide nicely with my place on the list with my dealer to demo the HD800S against my 800's.
 
Anyway, back on topic, the LISST's are to be taken seriously. 

 

[Delayeed]

Any comparisons between MJ2 with LISST and Ragnarok?

 

[sc2806]

Just a few days ago, I wrote to Schiit about a buzzing noise from my MJ2 every time I switch on the unit.  Does anyone else find this as well?  Anyway, the tech from Schiit said it was normal and, it should be fine.  He also said the LISSTs will buzz less because of a lower current draw.
It did, and everything was also quieter too! 
So, I have not gone back to tubes since because the LISSTs are still getting better and better.
I don't think I'm going back to the stock tubes, I'll try to find better tubes and compare again.
Any suggestions on affordably priced tubes?

 

[Rowethren]

Just a few days ago, I wrote to Schiit about a buzzing noise from my MJ2 every time I switch on the unit.  Does anyone else find this as well?  Anyway, the tech from Schiit said it was normal and, it should be fine.  He also said the LISSTs will buzz less because of a lower current draw.
It did, and everything was also quieter too! 
So, I have not gone back to tubes since because the LISSTs are still getting better and better.
I don't think I'm going back to the stock tubes, I'll try to find better tubes and compare again.
Any suggestions on affordably priced tubes?

I wouldn't worry about the buzzing, mine does that sometimes on startup as well.

Regarding tubes I use the iFi NOS 6922, nice clean sound with a good kick of warmth and not insane prices.

 

[sc2806]

The second day with the iFi NOS 6922 on the MJ2, the LISSTs will stay in their box for now. Everything has more details, dimensions, and textures. Dynamics and extensions are also very good, no microphonics, not as hot as the stock tubes. Fuller deeper with a nice musical bounce that doesn't sound too tubey.  For about 900HKD, these makes the Schiit MJ2 sounds a lot more interesting!     Thank you Rowethren for suggesting!  
 
The only concern now is how to unplug these without damaging them. The MJ2 doesn't allow to grab them from the base.