[ld100]

   
I suspect you're right that in most cases cable differences are not detectable (you meant HDMI cables I assume?), I just wanted to point out that USB=digital=bitperfect is not quite accurate specifically when in comes to USB audio.  When you say there is absolutely no difference between cables I think that's not technically correct (I wish I had a 50-foot unshielded USB cable to try out).  Since there is no error correction in place, and you say that cheap USB cables cannot influence the number of errors, do you have a source for your assertion that errors don't actually happen in the real world?
 
P.S. I don't actually own any audiophile cables, USB or otherwise... 

 
Yes. I meant HDMI. But we are talking about USB...
 
My source of my assertion:
 
Coming from a person with degree in computer science:
 
Create a large file on your computer... Connect external hard disk with USB cable... Copy to hard disk... Copy same file back... Check for differences. FILES WILL BE EXACTLY THE SAME. Bit perfect. Small file or a very large file. If your system is working properly everything to the last bit will be the same,
 
You can repeat that 1000 times and at the end files will still be exactly the same. To the last bit. You can talk about error correction and this and that. But there is absolutely no difference if you connect your computer to your drive using the cheapest USB vs a very expensive USB cable. It is a stream of bits and at the end they function the same. When you connect external DAC to a computer using USB cable it is the same thing. Nothing different about it. Stream of bits...
 
So whoever claims that they can hear difference with cheap USB cables simply says that cheap USB cable do not function properly or as properly as more expensive ones. Lunacy. 

 

[MWSVette]

So what about that Jotunheim...

 

[drews]

   
Yes. I meant HDMI. But we are talking about USB...
 
My source of my assertion:
 
Coming from a person with degree in computer science:
 
Create a large file on your computer... Connect external hard disk with USB cable... Copy to hard disk... Copy same file back... Check for differences. FILES WILL BE EXACTLY THE SAME. Bit perfect. Small file or a very large file. If your system is working properly everything to the last bit will be the same,
 
You can repeat that 1000 times and at the end files will still be exactly the same. To the last bit. You can talk about error correction and this and that. But there is absolutely no difference if you connect your computer to your drive using the cheapest USB vs a very expensive USB cable. It is a stream of bits and at the end they function the same. When you connect external DAC to a computer using USB cable it is the same thing. Nothing different about it. Stream of bits...
 
So whoever claims that they can hear difference with cheap USB cables simply says that cheap USB cable do not function properly or as properly as more expensive ones. Lunacy. 

 
Yeah, I have a CS degree too and I've implemented error correction and detection, worked on SCSI device drivers etc., maybe that's why I'm interested in the details.  Your analogy between USB DACs and USB hard drives is flawed though because hard drives use a reliable USB protocol (bulk) but USB DACs use a different non-error-correcting protocol - there is indeed something different about it despite your claim to the contrary.  Does that mean USB cables sound different?  I share your skepticism...  Anyway, this is off topic so we should move on...

 

[ld100]

   
Yeah, I have a CS degree too and I've implemented error correction and detection, worked on SCSI device drivers etc., maybe that's why I'm interested in the details.  Your analogy between USB DACs and USB hard drives is flawed though because hard drives use a reliable USB protocol (bulk) but USB DACs use a different non-error-correcting protocol - there is indeed something different about it despite your claim to the contrary.  Does that mean USB cables sound different?  I share your skepticism...  Anyway, this is off topic so we should move on...

 
I am simplifying it as much as I can. I know exactly what you saying... But error correction or no error correction there no way USB cable can alter sound. It is as simple as that.

 

[jimmers]

  ... Does that mean USB cables sound different?  I share your skepticism...

My favourite audiophile explanation of USB cable differences, the "Narrow Bits"

 (no,really) 
P.S. don't have a mouthful of coffee when you read it, I am not responsible for the consequences 

 
https://www.telluriumq.com/extra_resources/documents/black_usb_review.pdf

 

[ld100]

  My favourite audiophile explanation of USB cable differences, the "Narrow Bits"

 (no,really) 
P.S. don't have a mouthful of coffee when you read it, I am not responsible for the consequences 

 
https://www.telluriumq.com/extra_resources/documents/black_usb_review.pdf

 
OMG! How do they even come up with that?

 

[GearMe]

Feeling Jittery? Can't seem to Connect? Your Mojo (or Bifrost) not what it used to be?

Questions about Cables??? Ask the Cable Guy!

 

[Mr Rick]

   
OMG! How do they even come up with that?

 
"There's a sucker born every minute" is a phrase most likely spoken by David Hannum, in criticism of both P. T. Barnum, an American showman of the mid 1800s, and his customers. The phrase is often credited to Barnum himself. It means "Many people are gullible, and we can expect this to continue."

 

[blasjw]

As far as the bits are bits argument goes, I side with John Darko whose opinions on the matter are summed up nicely here:
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/09/ifi-spdif-ipurifier-entry-level-pricing-next-level-results/
 
The best part is this:
 
Of course, not everyone will necessarily hear it this way. As Chris Connaker wryly opined over at Computer Audiophile, “People who believe bits are bits and all digital audio must sound the same will be incredibly pleased with the Chromecast Audio.”
If that’s you, time to alight here.

 

[jimmers]

 
OMG! How do they even come up with that?

The author, when called on it, blamed the Manufacturer's website as his source - but the only reference to "Narrow Bits" on their site was his review (?).
Unbelievably the review is still on the Tellurium Q site without a disclaimer.

 

[Frode Roed]

When reading some of these posts I understand that basic understanding of electronics is not something they teach in computer science lessons.
What goes down a cable is not a bunch of Ones and Zeroes but a varying voltage (e.g. 5V TTL square pulse) that is NOT insensitive to variations in cable capacitance, inductance, etc.
In the receiving end in many instances there exist a Schmitt-trigger that decides if the rising and trailing edge is above or below the voltage threshold set. There also exist a hysteresis to include in this binary equation. If you transfer a file the file will remain in bit perfect stage, however if you stream data as analog signals (because this is actually what you do) you might risk getting timing or phase errors which our ears are extremely sensitive to. A trained conductor ear can detect timing errors down to as little as a 5üs.
Now, for USB, packets of data are transferred and recreated in the receiving end, so the elaborations above is not as critical as for e.g. S/PDIF over coax.
However, I still think that bold statements in one direction or another needs to be backed up with all aspects that matters for transmitters, receivers and cable in-between before ruling out whether significant influences that might affect our audible perception exist.

 

[Mirakoolz]

if you're going to upgrade your USB Cable, dont forget to isolate and shield the  PCB Tracings on your motherboard with some C-Section lead conduit from your chosen USB Port back to the Motherboard Chipset. im not sure what the thickness requirement will be but considering the traces are very close to each other, it may prove difficult. dont forget it must be done on both sides of the motherboard as well. only then will your AQ cable can sound more musical, meaning you'll hear instruments that arent actually in the recording.

 

[Mirakoolz]

also, if you listen to any streaming services such as spotify or tidal (Oh No! thats so unaudiophile-like), consider upgrading your ethernet cable to one of AQ's great solutions. you want to make sure all them bits are coming from your modem to your computer's ethernet port with the highest fidelity possible to ensure maximum musicality
http://www.audioquest.com/ethernet/vodka
 
but then further examination and investigation is required. you'll soon discover that the tracings on your Modem's PCB need to be shielded with LEAD C-Section conduits as well - on both sides of the PCB. once this is addressed, we must ensure that your phone line cable or coax cable from modem back to the wall is of the highest quality as well to ensure our modem is feed the best signal as to not pose as a bottleneck to our recently shielded Modem and subsequent AQ ethernet cable.
 
ah but then you say, "what about the phone line wiring within my wall back to the local exchange?" for which you can answer with another question such as "what about the wiring between my exchange back to my ISP, to their optical network, the undersea cabling, then ultimately the streaming service's datacentre cabling"
 
hmmm, AQ needs to diversity into IT!

 

[ld100]

  As far as the bits are bits argument goes, I side with John Darko whose opinions on the matter are summed up nicely here:
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/09/ifi-spdif-ipurifier-entry-level-pricing-next-level-results/
 
The best part is this:
 
Of course, not everyone will necessarily hear it this way. As Chris Connaker wryly opined over at Computer Audiophile, “People who believe bits are bits and all digital audio must sound the same will be incredibly pleased with the Chromecast Audio.”
If that’s you, time to alight here.

 
 
But we are not talking about processing. "all digital audio must sound the same" is about processing digital signal. There are different ways to process. Different algorithms... USB cable does not have any processing. It does not alter data unless it is malfunctioning. What comes in on one end comes out on another. If there is data loss that pretty much means that cable is faulty. And it is the same for cheapest and the most expensive USB cables.
 
There is no point of beating this dead horse any further... Personally I am not trying to convert anyone and everyone certainly is entitled to his opinion. You are more than welcome to spend any kinds of money on USB cables you wish.

 

[zeissiez]

 

   
Does this mean you feel NFB-28's amp part is better than Jot? I'd like to hear more about Jot vs AGD amps (NFB-28, NFB-1AMP etc)

+ 1

 
I didn't have the NFB-28 with me, but I borrowed an old AGD Compass 2 which was single ended in and out. I compared the amps of the Jotunheim and the Compass 2. The difference between them was small. Here are the differences: 1. The Compass 2 had a wider soundstage, and an equally holographic soundstage, which surprised me, given that the Jotunheim was balanced in and out. 2. The Jotunheim treble is tastefully rolled off, which partly explained why the unmodded HD800 was ok with the amp. Compass 2 trebles were more extended. 3. Both equally detailed and dynamic. 
Side notes: 1.The Vega which is a delta-sigma amp was less harsh than the AGD Ref5.32. So it's all down to implementation. The Vega had more stable sound images too. 2. The Jotunheim was dead quiet with the Oriolus IEM, very nice match. 3. Raspberry Pi 2 as source was clearly superior than MacBook Pro and X7, more solid images, and more air between voices. I don't know how the 1s and 0s arrived at the DACs that made them sound different, but they sounded different, easily audible within seconds.
 
Cheers