[bevanc]

Thanks for the responses. I also skimmed the Bifrost 2 thread.

So, here's my impression on a well burned-in and well warmed-up Bifrost 2 (non-/64) in MCB mode and in NOS mode:

I can't hear even the slightest bit of a difference.

Like, literally none.

Switching between the two modes seems to work, at least going by the LED. It's toggling as expected between steadily lit (MCB mode) and breathing (NOS mode) when the source button is pressed and held for a few seconds and then released. But there's no audible change of any kind, none whatsoever.

Based on the impressions I've read here and elsewhere, I should be able to hear somewhat of a difference in Bifrost's presentation, even if people can't quite agree on what those are. …but what else is new, right?!

I couldn't find a video or audio recording of someone switching between the modes, so I don't even know if there's a little gap in the audio playback when the microcontroller switches between the two modes. With my unit, I can't hear any gap whatsoever, not even for a millisecond or two. Which, again, could be perfectly normal for all I know.

My hearing is comparably good, and anyone who has read my reviews in the past knows that I'm not JUST talking out of my a$$. But that I can't hear a difference in presentation feels really odd to me.

Not least of all because I sincerely doubt that Mike would go through all that effort to develop his MCB filter if you can't even hear the slightest bit of difference in the end after all.

So, either I'm hearing things by NOT hearing any difference, or my particular unit doesn't actually switch between the modes for some reason. That's why I asked specifically if someone has some MCB/NOS mode switching experience and impressions with the Bifrost 2 (non-/64).

I've only tried NOS on the new TI chip. There was a clear difference there, I didn't like it, it felt unnatural and spiky.

 

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

ok. Let me know what amp and headphones and tracks you used, I’d be happy to give it a go.

Most certainly, good Sir.

The following recipe should give you an adequately whelming chance to replicate my results, maybe:
- one Bifrost 2 with two pinches of Analog Devices flavoring, in silver for added panache
- stir in one whole 2/64 firmware, under adequate care and precaution as not to brick that brick
- one Jotunheim 2, making sure it's the good stuff, not that black powder coated nonsense. Who wants to listen to a void?!?!
- combine the two with a matched pair of XLR cables of your choosing. Avoid Amazon Basics if possible, as we want to maintain a modicum of class. (The use of single-ended cables is of course an option, but will require you to surrender your pretentious-AF audiophile card to the authorities.)
- add to that any two cans of transducer magic that you have at hand. Revealing planars are recommended but not required, as no discernible difference in Bifrost's output could be detected in this here test kitchen, regardless of the applied choice of headdress.
- bake until sufficiently hot, not bothered

A list of recommended wines can be found attached.

Enjoy!



I chose Jotunheim as the main amp for this test because it's the most neutral-adjacent headphone amp that I own. The goal was to leave most of the heavy lifting in the flavoring department up to Bifrost. (I am waiting for the Drop + THX AAA789 to become available again for these kinds of tests, but alas, Drop just can't seem to be bothered.)
I'm sure you could also use a Magni 3+ or Heresy, but I haven't.
Yet.
What I also tried last night after my post, however, was Jotunheim R with a pair of ribbons (duh!).
The Jot R-and-ribbon-combo is so brutally unfiltered and revealing that if anything could give me a chance to hear a difference, they should.
They didn't.

I have yet to try this in my living room two-channel chain, though. That setup truly HATES the Bifrost 2; most of the stage and image I otherwise enjoy with it just collapses to the size of a small beach ball and all of that system's usual airiness and clarity gets suffocated under something that's better described as a weighted blanket than a veil. Who knows, maybe that might turn out to be my best chance to hear if NOS makes ANY difference whatsoever after all.

Just for added clarity, and because this post doesn't meet my usual word count yet: What I was testing for isn't what any one of these components sounds like, nor their sum. I'm only curious about whatever the difference in sound might be between MCB mode and NOS mode, with everything else kept unchanged. Entirely relative from one mode to another, not in the absolute terms of each mode in isolation. That's why I don't think the exact chain should matter much, as long as it is kept somewhat neutral overall.

At this point, I would actually already be content knowing for certain whether there actually IS a difference at all, beyond any placebo effects and wishful thinking, regardless of what these differences may be. Because — to me — it sounds precisely the same. And as I said before: That doesn't make any sense to me. Mike has proven over and over again that he is much too smart to waste years of his life on a filter that doesn't actually do anything.

 

[GumbyDammit223]

I know that they are probably easier (or at least cheaper) to source and also likely make things a little easier to assemble, but…

The one thing that bugs me a tiny little bit about Folkvangr is the power switch. Even after a few months of use, I still find it a little "difficult" to locate it. Not actually difficult, of course, but it's just not the same effortless ease with which I always immediately find the old flip/toggle switches. In theory, the new integrated rocker switch should be easier to find because it's closer to the edge of the device AND immediately above the power cable, serving as a "landmark" of sorts for your grabby little fingers. But with the old toggle switches, I somehow never have to look, or even think. I just find them. Blindly. Immediately. And every single time.
The toggle switches also feel a lot more satisfying to use, what with their nice metallic *chonk* and all.

Seems like most newer Schiit gear (with internal transformers) might be getting that new rocker switch assembly. Tyr has it (although it doesn't bother me there since I never switch mine off), and based on the drawing Jason posted the other day, Urd seems to be getting them, too. Of the newer stuff, only Lyr still retained the old toggle switch. Maybe so Schiit could continue to use the same bottom chassis, I guess. Or because that newer power-socket-with-integrated-fuse-and-power-switch assembly is a little deeper and would not fit behind those two chunky transformers in Lyr? No idea.

Just to be clear: This isn't meant as a complaint by any means. It's just something I noticed. The new switches are completely fine. No reason to complain. My brain just seems to prefer the old ones a little more for no good reason.

I dunno… These new switches are just so… …so normal. …so mundane. …so consumer electronics like. …so completely unlike Schiit!

Maybe it's my imagination (probably is), but when I power mine down, I think I hear a subtle arc inside the switch. The type of arc that happens when you open a circuit carrying a fair amount of current. Without diving through the specs of a dozen pieces of Schiit, could the FV be one of the few items that's drawing more current and a heavier switch was needed?

BTW, was listening to it last night and was able to put a couple hours onto it for a total now, of maybe 6? Using my new ZMF Atrium that arrived last week. So nice! I have the FV sitting on the shelf right below m turntable. In the corners of the turntable shelf I have two wax LED candles. I wonder how long the FV would have to be on for those candles to melt??? The bottom of the shelf (glass) does get pretty warm!

 

[Balthazar B]

I usually have gorgeous models at the end of my dreams. Which is why I hit the snooze button repeatedly for an hour every morning. Also: why they're just dreams.

Dreams with benefits. Or at least leftovers.

 

[Balthazar B]

Just asked someone a question who already answered it. Obviously my Mr. Fusion Home Energy Reactor needs a tune-up.

 

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

Most certainly, good Sir.

The following recipe should give you an adequately whelming chance to replicate my results, maybe:
- one Bifrost 2 with two pinches of Analog Devices flavoring, in silver for added panache
- stir in one whole 2/64 firmware, under adequate care and precaution as not to brick that brick
- one Jotunheim 2, making sure it's the good stuff, not that black powder coated nonsense. Who wants to listen to a void?!?!
- combine the two with a matched pair of XLR cables of your choosing. Avoid Amazon Basics if possible, as we want to maintain a modicum of class. (The use of single-ended cables is of course an option, but will require you to surrender your pretentious-AF audiophile card to the authorities.)
- add to that any two cans of transducer magic that you have at hand. Revealing planars are recommended but not required, as no discernible difference in Bifrost's output could be detected in this here test kitchen, regardless of the applied choice of headdress.
- bake until sufficiently hot, not bothered

A list of recommended wines can be found attached.

Enjoy!



I chose Jotunheim as the main amp for this test because it's the most neutral-adjacent headphone amp that I own. The goal was to leave most of the heavy lifting in the flavoring department up to Bifrost. (I am waiting for the Drop + THX AAA789 to become available again for these kinds of tests, but alas, Drop just can't seem to be bothered.)
I'm sure you could also use a Magni 3+ or Heresy, but I haven't.
Yet.
What I also tried last night after my post, however, was Jotunheim R with a pair of ribbons (duh!).
The Jot R-and-ribbon-combo is so brutally unfiltered and revealing that if anything could give me a chance to hear a difference, they should.
They didn't.

I have yet to try this in my living room two-channel chain, though. That setup truly HATES the Bifrost 2; most of the stage and image I otherwise enjoy with it just collapses to the size of a small beach ball and all of that system's usual airiness and clarity gets suffocated under something that's better described as a weighted blanket than a veil. Who knows, maybe that might turn out to be my best chance to hear if NOS makes ANY difference whatsoever after all.

Just for added clarity, and because this post doesn't meet my usual word count yet: What I was testing for isn't what any one of these components sounds like, nor their sum. I'm only curious about whatever the difference in sound might be between MCB mode and NOS mode, with everything else kept unchanged. Entirely relative from one mode to another, not in the absolute terms of each mode in isolation. That's why I don't think the exact chain should matter much, as long as it is kept somewhat neutral overall.

At this point, I would actually already be content knowing for certain whether there actually IS a difference at all, beyond any placebo effects and wishful thinking, regardless of what these differences may be. Because — to me — it sounds precisely the same. And as I said before: That doesn't make any sense to me. Mike has proven over and over again that he is much too smart to waste years of his life on a filter that doesn't actually do anything.

OK, scratch all that.

I just tried it again with Jotunheim 2, but this time I used single-ended headphone cables instead of the usual balanced ones.

Now I do not only hear a short but pronounced interruption in the sound output every time I switch between MCB and NOS, there's also a clearly audible difference in perceived "room size" and bottom end. MCB appears larger in size and more precise in placement, with more clear air up top and a more pronounced bottom end compared to NOS.
What I'm describing can most easily be heard with Buena Vista Social Club's Chan Chan, for example.

I'll still try this in my living room setup as well, but yeah — I get it now. Mike sure knows what he's doing.

Still weird that I can't hear a lick of difference when going balanced, though…

Post Scriptum:
Does Jotunheim 2's SE out sound a bit warmer and slightly less crisp than the balanced out?
I don't think I've ever actually used the SE out on this thing, much less both in such short succession…

 

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

Just asked someone a question who already answered it. Obviously my Mr. Fusion Home Energy Reactor needs a tune-up.

No worries, I simply assumed that you haven't gotten that far in the thread yet. Happens to the best of us. ;p

 

[Runrunsmithfly]

Another budget multibit DAC please. A Bifrost 2 is $866.17 with tax and shipping. That's out of reach for a lot of people, including retired me.

 

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

Another budget multibit DAC please. A Bifrost 2 is $866.17 with tax and shipping. That's out of reach for a lot of people, including retired me.

Modi Multibit will come back, it's only a matter of time (and chip supply). It appears to be waaay too successful a product to ever really go away.

 

[decooney]

@ssmith3046 "Another budget multibit DAC please. A Bifrost 2 is $866.17 with tax and shipping. That's out of reach for a lot of people, including retired me."

fwiw, I just purchased the new Bifrost 2/64. Comparing it to some of my other days, R2R/Ladders, prior non r2r days. I'm a long time lurker, and a first time buyer of any Schiit products. Did quite a bit of reading up and looking over some early reviews on this one. Now in my 2nd week with BF 2/64, letting it run and keeping it powered on. Yes, it was kinda peaky and sort of had a glare first 45 minutes. After 4-days of constant power-on and playing 5hrs a night, its settled in nicely so far. A few members on this site said to "give it a full two weeks" and listen again closely then. Schiit replied there is no burn-in time. That's not what I'm hearing. It did seem to smooth out and open up more, slightly up until day-4. At day-5, I could not tell if it changed any more. I even tested turning it off a full day and back on at day-5. Still open and clear with only a few hours pre-warmup just as an in-between test. Now back to leaving it powered on a lot more in the 2nd week just for grins.

A goal:
A buddy is selling off some of his other gear to get one. Good idea. Both of us thought this might be our "backup dac". So far, mine is staying in the primary position. The next series of tests will involve rotating in some different cables we both use for input/output from sources to our tube preamp/amps. If possible, as a future goal, it might be worth saving up for or selling off some other unused stuff for it. I hope to know a bit more on how it sounds after week2. We will see. Best of luck.

 

[mattlach]

fwiw, I just purchased the new Bifrost 2/64. Comparing it to some of my other days, R2R/Ladders, prior non r2r days. I'm a long time lurker, and a first time buyer of any Schiit products. Did quite a bit of reading up and looking over some early reviews on this one. Now in my 2nd week with BF 2/64, letting it run and keeping it powered on. Yes, it was kinda peaky and sort of had a glare first 45 minutes. After 4-days of constant power-on and playing 5hrs a night, its settled in nicely so far. A few members on this site said to "give it a full two weeks" and listen again closely then. Schiit replied there is no burn-in time. That's not what I'm hearing. It did seem to smooth out and open up more, slightly up until day-4. At day-5, I could not tell if it changed any more. I even tested turning it off a full day and back on at day-5. Still open and clear with only a few hours pre-warmup just as an in-between test. Now back to leaving it powered on a lot more in the 2nd week just for grins.

A goal:
A buddy is selling off some of his other gear to get one. Good idea. Both of us thought this might be our "backup dac". So far, mine is staying in the primary position. The next series of tests will involve rotating in some different cables we both use for input/output from sources to our tube preamp/amps. If possible, as a future goal, it might be worth saving up for or selling off some other unused stuff for it. I hope to know a bit more on how it sounds after week2. We will see. Best of luck.

There really shouldn't be any "burn in" period for any solid state equipment.

That's not how solid state circuits work. Tubes maybe, but not solid state circuitry.

I suspect what is being "burned in" is you, not the Bifrost 2/64. In other words, you've gotten used to it

 

[Ripper2860]

I'm right there with ya except I believe capacitors do break-in and could affect sound...

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/capacitor-burn-in-break-in.81355/

 

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

There really shouldn't be any "burn in" period for any solid state equipment.

That's not how solid state circuits work. Tubes maybe, but not solid state circuitry.

I suspect what is being "burned in" is you, not the Bifrost 2/64. In other words, you've gotten used to it

That applies to some degree to op-amps, but not multibit/R2R DACs and other discreet audio circuitry. Resistors change their properties with temperature, some rather drastically, and so do capacitors and most types of transistors.
A debate can certainly be had about the need to burn in new gear, but from a physics point of view, operating temperature does in fact matter. And it's no secret that especially the Analog Devices chips used in the "OG" multibit products take their due time to get up to a point where they perform at their best. Whether it's enough to give your DAC an hour to fully stabilize, or a week, that's obviously up to the ear of the beholder.

 

[mattlach]

That applies to some degree to op-amps, but not multibit/R2R DACs and other discreet audio circuitry. Resistors change their properties with temperature, some rather drastically, and so do capacitors and most types of transistors.
A debate can certainly be had about the need to burn in new gear, but from a physics point of view, operating temperature does in fact matter.

Certainly allowing the equipment to warm up can have an effect.

For something that doesn't have any moving parts the effect should be small, and probably inaudible (though I could be wrong on that), but still possible or even probable, even to a measurable level.

Burn in though? I'm a huge skeptic there.

 

[decooney]

@mattlach I suspect what is being "burned in" is you, not the Bifrost 2/64. In other words, you've gotten used to it

That would be nice if this was the case, with this particular unit. I'd say just about every piece of class-a or even class A/B solid state gear I've owned last 45 years had some early "settling in" period even if it was for only 1hr in the first hour. A notable difference with amps until they reach full bias, sure but an ss dac, we'll see more feedback on this, I hope. Perhaps it was dead cold and now specs change once fully warm. Making Schiit up now, hahah, LOL. No. Actually heard it. No joke.

In this case, the change was very notable even in the first 45 minutes. There was a midrange strange glare and sibilance at first. Was odd, made me think at first, oh man, "hope i don't need to return this piece of Schiit". Nope, not the case now - its good now. fwiw, I've been designing and building speakers for 4+ decades, I mod my own amps, caps, etc and do some early prototype demos for a few cable manufacturers. I've learned to listen very closely [over several decades now] and taking notes on early power-on and settling is a sidebar geek-out ocd thing I do. Sharing with you, there was a change in sound, for whatever reason. Or, the dac may be faulty and somehow mended itself. Who knows. In any case, sounds better now. 5+ others on this site alone agree it settles in week1, and @automojo felt he heard changes up through week2 with constant power-on too. We know each other from the speaker world, on other sites. I'll go with his rec on this plus 5+ others, and why would sound change if left powered on "all of the time" as even @Schiit even recommends for this dac to "leave it on". Why, if nothing changes.. hmmm.

Thanks for your input though. We'll see what the majority says in time once this new BF 2/64 is out there a while longer, and all experience is good. Thx.