[33na3rd]

I don't currently own a sub, so I might be mucking this all up. I thought rel's and other subs just had you hook up a second set of speaker wires. Bi Wiring as it were. One set to speakers, one set to sub.

I think Pietro does this in his gen 1 Ragnarok.

That works great on a "conventional" amp where the negative speaker post is tied to ground, but on many "balanced" or "differential" amps the negative speaker post is not tied to ground and can cause problems depending on the design of the sub.

I hook up my sub to my Vidar that is being used in stereo mode with great results. If I were using a pair of Vidars in mono mode, I would be forced to use the RCA outputs of my preamp instead.

 

[reddog]

Hey @reddog -- good to see you back! -- how's the pirate business, matey ..

Not much pirate stuff happening in my area. But I hope some pirate stuff starts to happen again soon. However Key West passed some liability laws and everyone is staying away from that venue lol. I am hoping Saint Augustine will hold a festival. Arg I hope you have been doing good.

 

[Alcophone]

I don't currently own a sub, so I might be mucking this all up. I thought rel's and other subs just had you hook up a second set of speaker wires. Bi Wiring as it were. One set to speakers, one set to sub.

I think Pietro does this in his gen 1 Ragnarok.

REL has special instructions for differential amplifiers:
https://relsupport.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004648928-Differential-Amp-Connection-Method

My sub is a Rythmik Audio F12G. When I asked about possibly using a Vidar (as mono block) to feed the high power input, I was told this:

It appears to me that in mono mode, the XLR+ in the XLR connector is amplified in one channel and XLR- is amplified in another channel. If the source is perfectly balanced, that is, the XLR- is exact negative of XLR+, what you can do is connect one of the channel output + and – to the subwoofer and you then connect the two “+” to your front speakers. Let me know if that makes sense to you.

It sounds similar to what REL is suggesting... maybe.

 

[Rensek]

REL has special instructions for differential amplifiers:
https://relsupport.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004648928-Differential-Amp-Connection-Method

My sub is a Rythmik Audio F12G. When I asked about possibly using a Vidar (as mono block) to feed the high power input, I was told this:


It sounds similar to what REL is suggesting... maybe.

Gosh I'm glad I don't currently have a sub or its associated headaches.

 

[Alcophone]

Gosh I'm glad I don't currently have a sub or its associated headaches.

I am glad I have mine. I placed it where it would be most convenient (no subwoofer crawl for me so far), used the RCA input (initially with RCA splitters from the preamp, no longer necessary with Saga or soon Rag 2), put a Decibel meter where my head would be most of the time, played a 50 Hz sine wave (about where mains and sub would overlap), changed the phase setting so that the measured level was highest (thus aligning the phase), changed the volume on the sub to a volume that sounded right, set the crossover frequency to roughly whatever was listed as the low end frequency of my mains, and would say it worked rather well. There are songs where I wouldn't notice no sub is running, but generally it's the only way to get most systems to be truly full range. I much prefer that sound over noticing a roll off.

 

[scottbrown5271]

2019, Chapter 9:
The Ragnarok That Is

... you haven’t as a company done a mid-engine car since the Fiero,

Off-topic, I know, but the platform that became Fiero was originally developed as a Mid Engine Corvette. Imagine a Corvette with a space frame and glued on plastic body... yeah, it didn't go over well with management so it all got foisted off on the Driving Excitement People at Pontiac . When Fiero was done, Generous Motors gave the tech, tools, etc., to their new "clean-sheet-design" car company in Spring Hill, TN, Saturn.

Back on topic:

Jason, thanks for the chapter. As for Rag 2, it is more appealing to me than the last iteration, especially the remote. I just don't have a use case that fits this cool new Ragnarok. Freya S though? Wow!! You pretty much nailed my wish list with that one, and to top it all off, NEXUS!! There are times when I need to interface pro audio stuff with consumer equipment and there is no transparent, plug and play way to do that. Much easier to use my new monitor manager, Freya! Plug it in and go. The alternatives we have now: For about $150 you can get a decent balun conversion box with about half a million transistors in the op amps they use, or for a little more you can get into proper audio transformers. Yes, audio transformers. An average solid state mic pre might cost $300-400 for a cheap but usable device. Add tubes, double the price. Add transformers, the sky is the limit, depending on who designed and wound them. Most of the music you listen to has been through at least one transformer or dsp emulation of one. Probably.

Question: If I drive one phase of a balanced input on Freya S and ground the other, will Nexus send a properly scaled, balanced differential signal to the next stage?

Request: A Nexus enabled effects loop in Freya S. I'm not sure you could stuff the extra connectors for the loop in the current chassis, but there seems to be plenty of real estate on the board for the buffers. Great for the current Loki (gotta be specific, trickster). You could even use it to monitor your tape recorder when you capture that first needle drop on a new album... I guess that last statement really shows my age...

High Praise: I was staring at the ground planes on the Freya S board porn trying to figure out why they are separate and are only connected to each other in carefully selected places. I started imagining eddy currents washing over the massive ground planes, then realized (I think) that you are coercing any potential from one plane to another to unity very close to where the signals or power cross from one area to another. Very cool. Or maybe I'm wrong again...

 

[neogeosnk]

I'm saddened to hear so little about Freya S compared to Freya +. It's easy to think that Freya + in solid state mode is the same as using Freya S, but it's not. Freya S is Nexus, Freya + isn't. Freya S also seems to be more linear in solid state mode.

I'm saying this because I want you all to buy Freya S so it's still around by the time I may need a balanced preamp. :-D

Go team Freya S!

I bought one when they came out (FreyaS). It's way better than the original Freya and I don't have to deal with tubes.

 

[Pietro Cozzi Tinin]

I don't currently own a sub, so I might be mucking this all up. I thought rel's and other subs just had you hook up a second set of speaker wires. Bi Wiring as it were. One set to speakers, one set to sub.

I think Pietro does this in his gen 1 Ragnarok.

Indeed.

 

[Snowpuppy77]

I bought one when they came out (FreyaS). It's way better than the original Freya and I don't have to deal with tubes.

Very interesting. I was wondering if the FreyaS would be a giant killer. I think this Thunderdome thing is kind of fun.

 

[Pietro Cozzi Tinin]

That works great on a "conventional" amp where the negative speaker post is tied to ground, but on many "balanced" or "differential" amps the negative speaker post is not tied to ground and can cause problems depending on the design of the sub.

I hook up my sub to my Vidar that is being used in stereo mode with great results. If I were using a pair of Vidars in mono mode, I would be forced to use the RCA outputs of my preamp instead.

Nah.. use two monoblocks balanced and use se output from the pre-amp to a small power amp for the Rel.

 

[Snowpuppy77]

Nah.. use two monoblocks balanced and use se output from the pre-amp to a small power amp for the Rel.

Are you running two monoblocks out of a Ragnarok 1 balanced pre-outs? If so do you think it makes a good preamp?

 

[Pietro Cozzi Tinin]

Yes the Ragnarok is a good preamp.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

Hey all,

A summary of the Preamp Thunderdome at the Schiitr is now up here: https://audio-head.com/a-four-way-schiit-shootout-freya-s-vs-saga-s/

And...a couple answers, in no particular order:

Question: If I drive one phase of a balanced input on Freya S and ground the other, will Nexus send a properly scaled, balanced differential signal to the next stage?

Request: A Nexus enabled effects loop in Freya S. I'm not sure you could stuff the extra connectors for the loop in the current chassis, but there seems to be plenty of real estate on the board for the buffers. Great for the current Loki (gotta be specific, trickster). You could even use it to monitor your tape recorder when you capture that first needle drop on a new album... I guess that last statement really shows my age...

Yep, Freya S converts SE to differential, no matter how it comes in--and yes, properly scaled and balanced.

And I hear you on the effects loop, but there's no space for it. It is interesting that Nexus will work for balanced equalization, though (without having to double the number of inductors and capacitors). That's something I'll be exploring in the future.

The mode button cycles through three settings in this order:

1. Speakers on, Headphones & pre-outs off
2. Speakers off, Headphones & pre-outs on
3. Speakers on, Headphones & pre-outs on

The mute button is basically

4. Speakers off, Headphones & pre-outs off

Edit: Actually not sure whether mute turns off the pre-outs, but... it better does.

Yep. Pre-outs are only on when the headphone light is on. No matter the other mode setting.

And no, the pre-outs are not muted automatically when headphones are plugged in; there's no way to sense whether a 4-pin headphone has been connected, so there's no automation. Same as for Mjolnir and Jotunheim. (Well, technically, Neutrik used to make 4-pin connectors that had integrated switches, but they don't seem to be a thing anymore, at least not in 4-pin. Yes, I looked.)

And as far as having the pre-outs only active when the headphone light is on, that was a specific request we've gotten many times, so that you can run subs with headphones. Yes, not kidding. So if you want the pre-outs active, select Headphones Only or Headphones and Speakers.

All the best,
Jason

 

[Xcalibur255]

If there is no performance penalty to operating the Rag in speakers+headphones mode purely to get the pre-amp output active for driving a sub when you are *only* listening to speakers, then this setup would seem to cover all of the usage bases. If there is a small penalty then it seems odd to me that the most common usage of the pre-out (to drive a sub with speakers) would take a backseat to allowing sub usage in headphone mode (which seems uncommon to me but maybe I'm totally wrong).

 

[Ableza]

If there is no performance penalty to operating the Rag in speakers+headphones mode purely to get the pre-amp output active for driving a sub when you are *only* listening to speakers, then this setup would seem to cover all of the usage bases. If there is a small penalty then it seems odd to me that the most common usage of the pre-out (to drive a sub with speakers) would take a backseat to allowing sub usage in headphone mode (which seems uncommon to me but maybe I'm totally wrong).

Why would yo think there is a "performance penalty"? Nothing anywhere from Schiit indicates this.