Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
May 27, 2016 at 8:59 AM Post #10,816 of 154,562
  DAR on Schiiting on MQA
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/05/schiitting-on-mqa/


I'm new to much of this world, but it's clarity like this and the willingness to put it out publicly that keeps me upgrading with their products.  The fact that the sound great to me seems directly related to their experience and their position about making the music I have sound the best that it can.
 
May 27, 2016 at 9:03 AM Post #10,817 of 154,562
They talk alot about the damage caused by MP3, calling it the main cause of overall music quality downfall, but never seem to touch the topic of declining producing/mastering standards to begin with. Just baffling.


Yeah. That feel when you buy the new Radiohead album in 'high res' FLAC and it has a DR of 5 
rolleyes.gif


Christ. Was thinking of buying the new album on Hi-Res but now I won't bother. Might buy it on CD if (hoping beyond hope) the DR is better. The CD is not listed on the Dynamic Range Database yet though.


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May 27, 2016 at 10:04 AM Post #10,818 of 154,562
They talk alot about the damage caused by MP3, calling it the main cause of overall music quality downfall, but never seem to touch the topic of declining producing/mastering standards to begin with. Just baffling.


IMO both the rise of MP3 and the mastering style that came with it were not the root cause.  The root cause was demand for small, portable music playback devices.  The formats were created to maximize content density on the new devices that consumers demanded.  I blame Sony and their Walkman.
 
May 27, 2016 at 10:31 AM Post #10,819 of 154,562
Don't want to derail this thread too much, but does anyone else find it a bit ridiculous that Stereophile attacked Schiit's press release by claiming they're trying to get other manufacturers to boycott MQA?
Whatever grandiose (read: petty) press chicken-fights, I have to say Schiit is certainly making some noise in 2-channel, and just in time for a hinted at imminent release of Analog 2-channel stuff. Brilliant marketing Jason : )
 
May 27, 2016 at 10:51 AM Post #10,820 of 154,562
Don't want to derail this thread too much, but does anyone else find it a bit ridiculous that Stereophile attacked Schiit's press release by claiming they're trying to get other manufacturers to boycott MQA?
Whatever grandiose (read: petty) press chicken-fights, I have to say Schiit is certainly making some noise in 2-channel, and just in time for a hinted at imminent release of Analog 2-channel stuff. Brilliant marketing Jason : )

 
Can you provide me a link, please?
 
Thanks!
 
May 27, 2016 at 10:53 AM Post #10,821 of 154,562
Don't want to derail this thread too much, but does anyone else find it a bit ridiculous that Stereophile attacked Schiit's press release by claiming they're trying to get other manufacturers to boycott MQA?
Whatever grandiose (read: petty) press chicken-fights, I have to say Schiit is certainly making some noise in 2-channel, and just in time for a hinted at imminent release of Analog 2-channel stuff. Brilliant marketing Jason : )

 
Can you provide me a link, please?
 
Thanks!


Same here. Looked at the Stereophile website and forums and can't see anything like that.


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May 27, 2016 at 11:45 AM Post #10,823 of 154,562
DSD wars were over, we were bored. Let the MQA wars begin!
 
May 27, 2016 at 11:48 AM Post #10,824 of 154,562
Don't want to derail this thread too much, but does anyone else find it a bit ridiculous that Stereophile attacked Schiit's press release by claiming they're trying to get other manufacturers to boycott MQA?
Whatever grandiose (read: petty) press chicken-fights, I have to say Schiit is certainly making some noise in 2-channel, and just in time for a hinted at imminent release of Analog 2-channel stuff. Brilliant marketing Jason : )


It's not really much of a commentary on the part of Stereophile, and I don't see how the Schiit press release is saying anything to whit other manufacturers, but it's pretty daft nonetheless.  But then rags like Stereophile, TAS and so on are largely built on hyperbole, exaggeration, the presumption of golden-ears, unlimited budgets (maybe advertising budgets more than those of prospective buyers) and nonsense in my opinion anyway.  Very hard to take much of what they say seriously.
 
From my own perspective, MQA is technically interesting and currently, musically, completely irrelevant.
 
It might become musically interesting if it bears out all it's promises AND the DRM angle turns out to be misconception (not likely) AND there is, almost overnight, a large available catalog of readily accessible, non-premium-priced, music available that I actually want to listen to.
 
I was a late comer to experimenting with DSD (bear with me, this will come back around to MQA), which came about as I started to look for a high-end DAC to source an additional system I've put together.  Those experiments have been way less than impressive.  Getting it to work, reliably, at more than the default single-rate (DSD64) has proven to be incredibly frustrating with drop-out issues being common even on massively overpowered hardware (possibly an OS X/USB issue, but an issue nonetheless).  And, more importantly, sound quality wise it's rare I can tell a difference between DSD and standard 16/44.1 Redbook files anyway!
 
When I can, the difference is by no means consistently positive.  And when it is positive, it's almost always due to the master being different.  Doing something as simple as converting DSD to Redbook, to ensure the same master, generally yields no difference I can discern.  This issue has, so far,  been true with everything from the Chord Mojo all the way "up" to the Merging NADAC.
 
Of course, much the same is true with high-resolution PCM files, though again sometimes the native master results in a better outcome than the existing Redbook version I already owned.  But unless I know that the master is significantly better for a high-resolution file than it's 16/44.1 equivalent (either due to a remaster, or just an only-available-recently re-release), I don't even bother with high-resolution PCM material anymore (and that's curtailed my HD Tracks etc. spending, since they are invariably more expensive for the standard-rate downloads than just ordering the physical CD from Amazon and ripping it).
 
Given how far DSD hasn't come, and bear in mind it's been around in one form or another for 17 years now, I have very little hope, and no expectation, that MQA is going to be anything more than a distraction and any sales are going to be driven from a fear-of-missing-out perspective.
 
I'm not going to hold off on my pending DAC purchase to see what happens with MQA, since I expect that, even if it IS successful, that's something that is going to take years to actually happen.
 
MQA was supposed to be on TIDAL as of the first half of this year.  Well, boys, you've got 34 days left on that one.  Not that, even if you made it, there's much of anything to actually showcase it with. I can count the number of ways to actually play it on the fingers of one hand (don't even need the thumb).  None of them are compelling ... because beyond MQA they need to be competitive when playing the music I already have, not some possible future catalog.
 
If it works out, and does all it claims, it'll be wonderful I'm sure.
 
But I don't buy on "futures" and "promises".
 
Get it clarified, especially on the DRM potential.  Get it done.  Get it shipping broadly.   Get a varied, interesting, substantial, catalog out there at sensible prices.  Get it plugged into the streaming options.  Get it to a point where it is unequivocally, demonstrably, consistently BETTER than what's currently available.  And, while you're at it, get the industry at large to quit their abortionate trend in massively compressed mixes that sound lousy out of the gate (because if you don't address that it's all pretty much moot anyway).  And then, when you've done ALL of those, come back and talk to me about it, because before that happens it's not even a footnote.
 
Content is king.
 
MQA could sound like a choir of angels personally serenading me ... but if the music I enjoy is not available there then why on Earth would I give a damn?
 
May 27, 2016 at 2:52 PM Post #10,826 of 154,562
  
I forgot to mention Bandcamp. Holy moly, I am getting old!
 
But yes, thanks for bringing this up. If you want to support the artist directly--and get FLAC--go to Bandcamp!


One summer at BandCamp......


Reading this reminds me of one of my favourite Simpsons episodes.

[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/UUKKenvoH1U[/VIDEO]


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May 27, 2016 at 5:01 PM Post #10,827 of 154,562
  What that ("the decoded stream cannot be outputted digitally") sez to me is MQA is a still born platform.
At least as far as the 'industry' is concerned, aka another flash in the pan…
 

What makes MQA stillborn for me is that it is little other than a fancy MP3-like perceptual encoding codec out there, this time undocumented to the public.
 
The Wiki entry is revealing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_Quality_Authenticated
"The basic premise is to hierarchically compress the relatively little energy in the higher frequency bands into compressed data streams, which are then embedded into the lower frequency bands using proprietary dithering techniques."
 
And preparing the battleground for any upcoming criticism:
"One more difference to standard formats is the sampling process. The audio stream is sampled and convolved with a triangle function, and interpolated later during playback. The techniques employed, including the sampling of signals with a finite rate of innovation, were developed by a number of researchers over the preceding decade, including Pier Luigi Dragotti and others.[9] The use of these novel sampling technologies may result in standard methods of analysing conventional digital audio content producing meaningless or misleading results when applied to MQA files."
 
May 27, 2016 at 6:53 PM Post #10,829 of 154,562
I'll pass on the kool aid du jour and gladly keep buying cds and flac downloads of redbook material. They have never sounded better to me than with my current gear. Pour your favourite beveridge, put on the tunes and smile. Life's good.

 
I agree - this is where I am.  Purchasing CD's and ripping to 16/44.1 ALAC to listen thru JRiver.  That SQ is great, for me (Thanks to the GMB!).  Even the old MP3 stuff still contained in my iTunes sound better when played through JRiver.  I do occasionally buy 24/96 albums from HDTracks, but my experience with them is about 50% - half don't sound very good, so a waste of money and they aren't cheap.  I am convinced, as @kstuart mentioned above, that it's fully dependent on the quality of the original recording.  With well-recorded original master tapes, I do find that the 24/96 improves the SQ.  It's a deeper and more full/expansive sound.
 
Net, I am amassing quite a CD collection that, over time, will be donated to the local library so others can enjoy the music.  Not sure where I stand w/ regard to streaming.  IMO, it seems to short the musicians, who are after all what this is all about.  They could disappear without adequate compensation.
 
As always IMO,
RCBinTN
 
May 27, 2016 at 6:54 PM Post #10,830 of 154,562
  What makes MQA stillborn for me is that it is little other than a fancy MP3-like perceptual encoding codec out there, this time undocumented to the public.
 
The Wiki entry is revealing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_Quality_Authenticated
"The basic premise is to hierarchically compress the relatively little energy in the higher frequency bands into compressed data streams, which are then embedded into the lower frequency bands using proprietary dithering techniques."
 
And preparing the battleground for any upcoming criticism:
"One more difference to standard formats is the sampling process. The audio stream is sampled and convolved with a triangle function, and interpolated later during playback. The techniques employed, including the sampling of signals with a finite rate of innovation, were developed by a number of researchers over the preceding decade, including Pier Luigi Dragotti and others.[9] The use of these novel sampling technologies may result in standard methods of analysing conventional digital audio content producing meaningless or misleading results when applied to MQA files."

I just skimmed the presentation of the underlying coding technique (Dragotti's slide deck, [9] on the Wikipedia page) and I don't think this is at all like perceptual coding. I know the relevant math a bit, and this is encoding, not compression, when applied to a band-limited signal, which all music recording is. Fixed sample rate PCM is not the only way of representing a band-limited waveform to within a prescribed discretization accuracy, and it's not surprising that more recent math than what 1920s telecommunication engineers had might deliver more quality at a given bit rate. The issue with MQA is not technical, at least not with the theory behind it, it's the business model. The great majority of those who can afford high-quality audio can even better afford high-capacity storage and high bit rate transmission, and anyway good transmission and reproduction of 44.1/16 PCM gives you so much bang for the buck that buying into a proprietary format so that you an get a bit more resolution at a given bit rate seems totally silly. I'm baffled that price-is-no-object audiophiles like the Stereophile target audience would care about better encoding at a given bit rate when even good source 96/24 PCM is not quite growing on trees. Heck, just buy more storage/network capacity, if 44.1/16 is not enough for you.
 

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