[45longcolt]

This Schiit is magical. As Aegir and Yggy made Stereophile "Class A", it looks like Tyr may end up there, too. I know that some of you think that the entire concept of "Class A Components" is hype in itself, but I respectfully disagree. The voices at Stereophile, backed up by JA's unbiased, scientific measurements, are a badge of honor for any component IMHO. FWIW.

And not once did JA refer to the Tyrs as "obsolete."

Looking ahead, I wouldn't be surprised if Schiit offers a Class D speaker amp within two years. Or, rather, I'd be surprised if Schiit doesn't introduce a Class D speaker amp in the next couple of years. Once Jason finds a way to put his own spin on it.

 

[rkw]

Class D has advanced enough to get the attention of folks like Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere.

I follow Karsten's posts on the Audiogon forum. He has been producing high-end tube amps for the past 40 years but this is his current view about class D:

IMO power tubes are on life support- even in the guitar industry class D has been making significant inroads in the last couple of years. Its clear that any manufacturer of amplifiers now has to contend with class D technology in a way that they did not a decade ago; in particular manufacturers of tube amplifiers will find their market shrinking dramatically over the next ten years. The reasons for owning tube amps (the 'sound') is being heavily eroded by advances in class D technology; any manufacturer that ignores this does so at their own peril.

Here was a post that summarizes his view on tubes vs solid state vs class D:

It's harmonic distortion and IMD that causes amplifiers to sound the way they do. Based on your comments, my surmise is that the solid state amps you’ve heard don’t have enough feedback. Plus what feedback they do have (which might be 25dB, not nearly enough) was applied at a non-linear spot near the input of the amp (usually a transistor) which caused the feedback signal to be distorted before it could do its job. As a result of the non-linearity, higher ordered harmonics were added to the resulting sauce.

Human ears complicate this in two ways. The first is that the ear uses higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure so is keenly sensitive to them (the ear has about 130dB range)! The second problem is the ear converts all forms of distortion to tonality, just as it converts the harmonics of musical instruments to tonality. So you can hear the distortion most solid state amps make quite easily- as harshness and brightness. Its a coloration every bit as much as the ’warmth’ of tubes caused by the 2nd and 3rd harmonics!

The nice thing about the 2nd and 3rd harmonics is they can mask the presence of higher ordered harmonics. This is the sole reason why tubes sound smoother than solid state.

Tubes have traditionally been better at low level detail such as decay of musical notes in a room. This is because the phase of the 2nd and 3rd harmonics help the ear to hear details like this, which includes the 3D sound stage.

It is possible to build solid state amps that sound like tube amps. All you have to do is have the same relationships of lower ordered harmonics to the higher orders (and not get messed up with IMD in the process). This is really hard to do with traditional class A or AB solid state amps, but IME it is possible to do with class D. What I am saying is there are class D amps now that sound like a tube amp- the best way to tell the difference is the class D is slightly better in the detail department.

 

[Cliffh93]

I don't remember what the company name was (nor can I remember when it was) but they had a showroom on Brompton Road in London. I'm guessing it was this one: https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/may-1989/32/evolution-theory. My recollection was it was twice the price in the article, but it's been a while

Fiberglass is a tough pill to swallow at twice the price, either then or now. Donald died in 1988, and Geoff followed in 1995. Once they were gone the remaining family members lost interest in trying to continue the line. In fact, just about everyone who was involved with the original cars is gone now - we lost Gerry Coker, who designed the original 'Hundred' Healey before moving stateside for a long career with Ford and Chrysler, back in 2020 at the age of 98.

 

[Cliffh93]

My first (owned, i.e. not a company hack) was a '68 MGB GT (OTD 854G) which was great fun!

I had a 1967 B-GT for a while back in the 90's, I still miss that car for its tossability, the only car I've successfully four wheel drifted (meaning I didn't hit anything!).

There's a lot to be said for tall skinny tires on a proper sports car with real steering feel. Yes, modern cars go faster, but they are driving you, not the other way round.

 

[golfbravobravo]

I had a 1967 B-GT for a while back in the 90's, I still miss that car for its tossability, the only car I've successfully four wheel drifted (meaning I didn't hit anything!).

There's a lot to be said for tall skinny tires on a proper sports car with real steering feel. Yes, modern cars go faster, but they are driving you, not the other way round.

You could give the current Corvette a wiz, not sure I'd want to four-wheel drift it (even assuming I had the skill) but its a hell of a sports car.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

And not once did JA refer to the Tyrs as "obsolete."

Looking ahead, I wouldn't be surprised if Schiit offers a Class D speaker amp within two years. Or, rather, I'd be surprised if Schiit doesn't introduce a Class D speaker amp in the next couple of years. Once Jason finds a way to put his own spin on it.

Yes on obsolete. Doubtful on Class D. Although every amp topology is a compromise, it is the most compromised. We'll continue to play with it, but as I've said before, even going beyond the current state of the art hasn't impressed us.

You could give the current Corvette a wiz, not sure I'd want to four-wheel drift it (even assuming I had the skill) but its a hell of a sports car.

The mid-engine Corvette even converted a "I'll only always build my own cars, new cars have no soul, your toolbox is just a credit card if you don't actually do serious engine/chassis/body work, new cars are super overpriced and everyone should drive old cars," friend to saying, "Just get a new Corvette and be done with it."

Full disclosure: both my wife and I have done engine/chassis/bodywork (to the point of horrifying neighbors by razor-blading and sanding a car in our driveway in an (ahem) HOA neighborhood), we still have our old cars, we get where our friend is coming from...but his sudden conversion is telling. Much like Ivana's reaction to Class D.

Aside: his conversion, after his extreme frustration on how to get the new Corvette into gear...LOL. I'll personally take the Corvette's weirdo switches over any modern Audi where the shifter doesn't move.

 

[KoshNaranek]

I don't think Class D will sound good until the switching frequency gets above 100 MHz or so.

 

[Cliffh93]

I have not driven a C8, but know a few who have and they all had great things to say about it.

I was still doing track events when the C5 came out, and saw my first one at Rockingham (a 1 1/4 mile oval in North Carolina, using three of the Nascar turns plus an infield road course). Up until then, unless heavily modified, Corvettes were not the car of choice for track work. I had a 993 at the time, and the guy in the C5 could put a few car lengths on me on the straights, while I made them back up in the turns. We ran for 30 minutes or more like that, basically finished where we started.

C5 was the turning point for Corvettes.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

I don't think Class D will sound good until the switching frequency gets above 100 MHz or so.

100MHz switching 60V or so...scary scary stuff! Maybe a great way to get a visit from the FCC or explode your parakeet.

I figured we'd get something decent at original DSD speeds (2.8MHz). After all, DSD is a 1-bit modulator with noise shaping. But there's a big difference between switching 3.3V-5V into high impedances or virtual grounds and switching 30-60V into low and variable impedances.

We even had an internal logo for our latest Class D project, a logo encompassing our goal: a "not too schiit D" implementation.

100MHz, even if doable, would still require significant noise shaping. And then there's the whole "we're switching large amplitudes in FM bands...with almost certain harmonics up into the Bluetooth/WiFi bands" issues. Not insurmountable, but if anyone is thinking that a practical, amazing-sounding, high-efficiency amplifier is easy, let's just say that there are a lot of factors to consider. If I was shooting for efficiency, I'd rather go Class H, which has its own fun switching problems (rail modulation at audio frequencies isn't anything to joke about, either.)

 

[KoshNaranek]

I don't know if this of any use to anyone. I will run it by my wife later if she is not in a bad mood

 

[US Blues]

And here I thought the key issue with Class D was whether of not it sounded like ASS.

 

[Plautus001]

Yes on obsolete. Doubtful on Class D. Although every amp topology is a compromise, it is the most compromised. We'll continue to play with it, but as I've said before, even going beyond the current state of the art hasn't impressed us.

There definitely is something to doing what YOU do best. Trying out different approaches and technologies can be good, but only if it works for you.

I love Schiit for being Schiit and Grado for being Grado. I do not expect either company to replicate the products, features, designs of other companies.

Perssonally, I do not want cookie cutter products, I want good, specialized Schiit.

 

[ImagesbyMurray]

We even had an internal logo for our latest Class D project, a logo encompassing our goal: a "not too schiit D" implementation.

Perfect addition for the office decor

 

[rkw]

And here I thought the key issue with Class D was whether of not it sounded like ASS.

There are a wide variety of implementations ranging from good to bad, just like with Class AB.

 

[O8h7w]

100MHz switching 60V or so...scary scary stuff! Maybe a great way to get a visit from the FCC or explode your parakeet.

I figured we'd get something decent at original DSD speeds (2.8MHz). After all, DSD is a 1-bit modulator with noise shaping. But there's a big difference between switching 3.3V-5V into high impedances or virtual grounds and switching 30-60V into low and variable impedances.

We even had an internal logo for our latest Class D project, a logo encompassing our goal: a "not too schiit D" implementation.



100MHz, even if doable, would still require significant noise shaping. And then there's the whole "we're switching large amplitudes in FM bands...with almost certain harmonics up into the Bluetooth/WiFi bands" issues. Not insurmountable, but if anyone is thinking that a practical, amazing-sounding, high-efficiency amplifier is easy, let's just say that there are a lot of factors to consider. If I was shooting for efficiency, I'd rather go Class H, which has its own fun switching problems (rail modulation at audio frequencies isn't anything to joke about, either.)

I love that logo! Clever.

I don't know if the same was true for the power switching, but the NAD M2 did run its DSP and its feedback loop at 108 MHz. It was noted that most feedback schemes were way too slow for the task and the direct digital feedback approach solving this was somehow key to both getting distortion down and the load impedance sensitivity problem. And the idle power was 100 W, so maybe the power switching ran that fast too, and the one big advantage was suddenly not so big. But the sound was great, especially on B&W speakers with low minimum impedance.

I have not experienced any RF interference with its smaller siblings, but I can't tell you whether they run equally fast. They do run fairly high idle power.

I don't doubt your expertise, but I do doubt the claim that you went beyond what is avilable... ehm, maybe not, this tech is not available anymore. And I was curious about to what extent you listen to new stuff that other companies put out there, in addition to your own experiments and what you find in the DIY space.

As I've stated before, I agree that class D normally sounds bad. I have heard no exception other than these, which somehow end up with a high idle power. I will try to find an opportunity to listen to some Ralph Karsten stuff.