[AudioBear]

Why am I not surprised? What was that old Chinese curse? May you live in interesting times? We do indeed. (I know the quote is not ancient or Chinese)

 

[kstuart]

 
Some objectivist thought leaders—the kind that have written books—don’t portray their findings in a very (ahem) objectivist manner. Instead, they use emotionally charged language, actively demean subjectivists, and are dismissive of any approach that doesn’t align with the path that they have codified. This shrill, “die-heretic-die!” tone is not exactly conducive to rational debate…and (in my opinion), it doesn’t seem to indicate security in their belief systems.

It's interesting to note that the same applies to all "scientific materialist" vs "subjective experience" debates.  Human beings use these ideological positions as a basis for their feelings of personal identity, i.e.  "I'm a rational person !" (despite evidence that humans are not very rational, such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow ).
 
 
 
 

 

[Pokemonn]

Hello Jason!
I am a big fan of Schiit products! I own BIfrost and Lyr2 vali. and am going to buy a Yggy too.
Hifiman and Mrspeakers are going to release Stax compatible electrostatic headphones.
Do you have any plan to develop/manufacture electrostatic amplifiers?
 
Thank you very much!

 

[hifi808]

Came across this video from CamJam SoCal 2016.  Darko interviews Mike and Jason. I thinks it's the first time I've actually heard Mike's voice.
 
Talking Schiit.
 
Truth.

 

[mike138]

As a strictly mid-fi guy, I doubt the subjectivist/objectivist will matter much to my purchases. However, it is a little weird to me that such a minimal amount of testing is done. I don't mean measurements, I mean blind testing to see if this stuff really works. Granted, a lot of the companies in this field are small or mid-size businesses, but there are some giants like Sony. You think they would find it worth their investment to show there are real differences.
 
The one debate I would like to see laid to rest is the fight over digital cables; we have the "it's just data - it's either being received or it isn't" crowd vs the "my $9000 Adamantium USB cable expanded the soundstage width" crowd.  
 
BTW Jason, I love my Magni/Modi 2 Uber stack. I either use it with my Hifiman He400i, or as a preamp for an old stereo from 1981 I reclaimed from my parents' basement. I keep thinking I'll upgrade my amp at some point, but that combo is so good I might just stick with it.
 
Are you guys ever going to get into merch? I'd love to have a Schiit t-shirt.

 

[JohnnyCanuck]

  Are you guys ever going to get into merch? I'd love to have a Schiit t-shirt.

 
Why don't you google "Schiit t-shirt" and see what comes up?

 

[mmerrill99]

The one debate I would like to see laid to rest is the fight over digital cables; we have the "it's just data - it's either being received or it isn't" crowd vs the "my $9000 Adamantium USB cable expanded the soundstage width" crowd.

I don't want to rehash a thread from the sound science section but one possible explanation for differences in perceived sound are that there are differences in the noise at the receiving end of those cables. Where does the noise come from? From many sources - the first & foremost is the PC USB port itself. So how does a cable reduce this noise or change it's frequency spectrum? At the speeds that USB 2.0 works at - high speed is 480MHz & we need 5 times that bandwidth for the transmission of an undistorted squarewave signal i.e. 2GHz, then it's really surprising that this high speed signal interacts with the noise on the cable ground & shielding in different ways in different cables. This noise doesn't affect the digital signal but can easily get into the analogue parts of USB digital audio device & effect it (the various clocks are actually analogue devices).

Anyway, sorry, this is off topic - just thought I'd pitch in on this point!

 

[Ableza]

To me the "subjectivist VS objectivist" thing is sad.  It's all about people (usually men) needing to be "right."  And it's pointless.  I never understood why people don't realize that both points of view are in play at all times and both are equally valid.  The technical side of audio, the signal, power and acoustic side, is all measurable and describable objectively.  The perceptual side, what we hear, how we listen, the psychology and interpretive nature of audio, the listeners beliefs and experiences and what Goffman called our frames of reference, are not necessarily measurable nor describable and are completely personal and subjective.  And every time anyone listens to any audio playback system all these things are working and effecting the perceived result.  There is never any one thing, any one cause, any one reason: it is holistic.  So stop the arguments, eh?  If it works for you then it works.  Enjoy the music and stop trying to be "right" about why.
 
So remember, although your cryogenically-treated cartridge fuse filled with sand from Antarctica harvested from the purified feces of 10,000 penguins may not affect the power signal in any way whatever, if you think it makes your system sound better then that's all that matters.

 

[wink]

Quote:Jason the Guru

  Subjectivist: “I think my new Arglebargle X1000 sounds way better than the Craphound PST-1.”
Objectivist: “No, if they both measure 20-20K flat, have THD below 0.1%, and have a low output impedance, they have to sound the same.”
Subjectivist: “I think my experience trumps your measurements.”
Objectivist: “No, humans can’t perceive anything beyond that, see (insert links to tests here.)”
Subjectivist: “Well, I hear a difference and so does (insert anecdotes about friends, spouses, dogs, fish, etc).”
Objectivist: “Anecdotes aren’t data! You’re fooling yourself. (Insert words about scientific method and significant results here.)”
Subjectivist: (Sigh.) “Just leave me alone to enjoy my Arglebargle with the other folks I’m talking to here.”
Objectivist: “No! Don’t you see you’re being taken advantage of by evil companies selling overpriced gear?”
Subjectivist: “You probably just can’t afford good gear!”
Objectivist: “You’re nothing but a shill for the man!”
Subjectivist: “Ad hominem!”
Objectivist: “Ad hominem!”
 
And then you repeat the last two lines, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Subjectivist: “I think my new Arglebargle X1000 sounds way better since I bathed the earpads in unicorn tears”
Objectivist: “No, if they both measure 20-20K flat, have THD below 0.1%, and have a low output impedance, they have to sound like moist brown.”
Subjectivist: “I think my experience totally objective.”
Objectivist: “No, humans can’t tell the difference between an elephant or bat passing wind, see (insert links to tests here.)”
Subjectivist: “Well, I hear a difference and so does (insert pet bat, favourite Hip-Hop artist deaf mute, etc).”
Objectivist: “Anecdotes aren’t really anecdotes! Google that.! (Insert Google searches, comic strips and significant results here.)”
Subjectivist: (Sigh.) “Just leave me alone to enjoy my Arglebargle and my magnum of Ardberg 1974 Double Barrel Scotch Whiskey.”
Objectivist: “No! Don’t you see you’re being influenced by the whiskey and the pixie dust that you dusted the headphone cable with ?”
Subjectivist: “You probably just can’t get a good fit from your phones on that ugly mis-shapen pumpkin you call a head!”
Objectivist: “You’re nothing but an opinionated optimist that thinks anything new is better!”
Subjectivist: “Ad hominem!”
Objectivist: “Ad hominem!”
 
And then you repeat the last two lines, ad hoc, ad addendum, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. ad astra
 
 

 

• Every engineer I personally know who is working in audio is a subjectivist—they think that stuff that measures good sounds different, without exception. Just protecting their jobs? Perhaps. But many of these same engineers started like me, as an objectivist…until they had a subjectivist experience or two that changed their minds. And yes, I know, I don’t know every engineer on the planet.
• It seems that many of the most fervent objectivists aren’t working as engineers, or aren’t engineers working in audio, and most don’t seem to have any experience with the measurement gear they cite measurements from. Again, I know there are exceptions to this rule. Maybe their fervor is simply Robin Hood syndrome—trying to help the poor deluded subjectivists? 
• Most of the subjectivists I’ve met are unwilling or unable to factor in their own rationalization when proselytizing for gear, when the reality is we all rationalize what we have chosen as the best—and the more we’ve invested, the more powerful the urge to rationalize. Nobody wants to look like a fool who spent car money on audio gear that makes no difference. 
• Some objectivist thought leaders—the kind that have written books—don’t portray their findings in a very (ahem) objectivist manner. Instead, they use emotionally charged language, actively demean subjectivists, and are dismissive of any approach that doesn’t align with the path that they have codified. This shrill, “die-heretic-die!” tone is not exactly conducive to rational debate…and (in my opinion), it doesn’t seem to indicate security in their belief systems.

• Every engineer I personally know who is working in audio is a subjectivist—they just think they are objectivists. All of them.
• It seems that many of the most fervent objectivists aren’t working as engineers, They can't afford any good gear because they are too busy denigrating others and their gear to be found actually holding down a job and being a productive member of society.
• Most of the subjectivists I’ve met are unwilling or unable to factor in their own rationalization because they are too busy grooving out on their gear or tweaking the same to hear the ever more minute plankton that the newest tweak will reveal in all it's sonic splendour.
• Some objectivist thought leaders—the kind that have written books—don’t portray their findings in a very (ahem) objectivist manner. They are too busy being objective about their bank balance, or lack thereof as a result of the royalties from their latest authorial escapade.

 
Remember:- Never let those stubborn facts or percieved perceptions get in the way of your enjoyment of your gear and the sonic delights they translate to your auditory sensing organs.
 
An iBud is only a wannabe SR-009, and a SR-009 is just an iBud that sounds so incredibly better.

 

[senorx12562]

Thanks Jason, great chapter. When it comes to this topic, i'm pretty sure of two things:

1) There are some differences between certain pieces of gear that some can hear that cannot be measured, and;

2) There are some differences between certain pieces of gear that can be measured but that are not audible, to me or anyone else.

I am positive of only one thing: I cannot hear schiit above 15khz.

 

[Odin412]

I am positive of only one thing: I cannot hear schiit above 15khz.

 
I am in the same boat. I also know that my mood makes a bigger difference as to perceived sound quality than many of the actual sonic differences of the gear itself. That's partly why (I think) that gear tends to sound really good at CanJam: I'm happy and excited to be there and to meet fellow enthusiasts. That's probably also why the oft-mentioned glass of cognac/scotch/wine/brandy/absinthe etc.is probably the cheapest sound upgrade that you can buy.

 

[aamefford]

^^^ and why sometimes, the gear I find attractive sounds better to me...

 

[artur9]

  Happy objective subjectivizing, or subjective objectivizing...
 
…or simply sitting back, listening, and enjoying some great tunes.

That whole thing is great.  Should be on every forum's README.
 
Great way to close the article, too.

 

[tonykaz]

I have considerable respect for Schiit stuff and the Company !
 
But, I'm a music lover for it's mood altering benefit, I'm an Addict ( in a way ).  
 
Subjective vs. Objective is kind-of nonsense, I chase a better High!, booze could help or maybe not. 
 
I'm not gonna spend "mucho-dinero" on fancy cabinets, cabling, high resolution or any of the other hyped-up sillily sizzle items the Consumer Audio Industry present
,  the Asgard2 & Sennheiser HD series headphones already send me on a sufficient buzz. 
 
The "True-Believers" in either category of Subjective or Objective pursue things based on the Group they aspire belonging to, they eagerly promote views in support of their affiliations, god bless em. 
 
Better Sound Quality comes from better recordings, the gear is already outstanding. 
 
Tony in Michigan
 
ps.  I know of no higher concentration of obsessive types than Audiophilia , they are impossible to satisfy, addicts all! , sometimes our little "Campfire" seems like going to an AA meeting. ( my recovery date is August 9,1999 )

 

[pdferguson]

Where objectivists and subjectivists collide is in the double blind test. And invariably, it doesn't end well for the subjectivists. Just sayin'...