[watchnerd]

 
 
My passion is Hi-Fi, but I have very much valued my time in the pro audio industry (I do research and development for AEA Ribbon Mics and Preamps).  It's really opened my eyes to how records are made, the kind of equipment used, and how it is used.  Things are very to-the-point. 

 
This is very true.  And I think most hi-fi hobbyists would be well-served to understand more about the production chain.  
 
Much more time is spent worrying microphone choice (they're transducers, after all, and all of them have a sound of their own) than on, say, choice of cables.

 

[watchnerd]

  In the areas of engineering I work in, it's been common for the pros to become so skill at using suboptimal tools that they'll stick with it for decades, and defend them to the death, even though something better is now available. My (outsider) impression of the recording industry is that it is not competitive/dynamic enough to open up opportunities for those who use newer, better tools, especially given that the distinctions we are talking about in this thread are subtle (and non-detectable by most users anyway). In more dynamic industries like mine, old fogies stick to their ancient tools at their peril.

 
There might be some of that going on, but the real reason is the belief that ADCs have become good enough that they're not viewed as the weak link in the chain.  Just like they don't worry about cables.
 
Microphone choice, microphone placement, acoustics, choice of DAW software and plugins, and of course the mix itself are the big variables that are futzed with.

 

[earnmyturns]

   
There might be some of that going on, but the real reason is the belief that ADCs have become good enough that they're not viewed as the weak link in the chain.  Just like they don't worry about cables.
 
Microphone choice, microphone placement, acoustics, choice of DAW software and plugins, and of course the mix itself are the big variables that are futzed with.

You obviously know way more about the specifics than I do, but (drawing again from my own engineering experience in other areas), the key question is "compared with what"? If all the pros use similar DS ADCs, everyone's ear has become trained on that technology's artifacts. For instance, much that I (mostly) love ECM's "house" style on my living room or headphones, its overall smoothness is to my ear quite artificial compared with the edgier, livelier experience of listening to the same musicians live from the front row at SFJAZZ or Yoshi's. Of course this may have nothing to do with ADCs rather than the other technical and production factors you mention, but it's just to say that we are all talking about an artificial construct where the producer's choices are bound by tradition and expectation probably way more than by strict technical accuracy criteria.

 

[watchnerd]

  You obviously know way more about the specifics than I do, but (drawing again from my own engineering experience in other areas), the key question is "compared with what"? If all the pros use similar DS ADCs, everyone's ear has become trained on that technology's artifacts. For instance, much that I (mostly) love ECM's "house" style on my living room or headphones, its overall smoothness is to my ear quite artificial compared with the edgier, livelier experience of listening to the same musicians live from the front row at SFJAZZ or Yoshi's. Of course this may have nothing to do with ADCs rather than the other technical and production factors you mention, but it's just to say that we are all talking about an artificial construct where the producer's choices are bound by tradition and expectation probably way more than by strict technical accuracy criteria.

 
That's a great point of reference because SFJAZZ is a place I volunteer at sometimes, as well as the SF Symphony / Opera.  I don't know what Yoshi's uses.
 
The main concert hall at SFJAZZ uses a Roland S 2416 digital stage unit like I posted earlier (the little labs downstairs don't need it).  It has sigma-delta/delta-sigma chips inside it.
 
So the 'livelier' sound you hear has pretty much nothing to do with the ADCs.  It's all in the mic choices, the acoustics, the EQ/DSP/DRC, and in the mix.  Although, in the case of a front row seat, you should be hearing more direct acoustic sound and less from the PA system.
 
ECM's house style has pretty much nothing to do with their ADC/DAC choice.  It's all in the other aspects. Their 1970s all-analog recordings have the same ghostly sound.
 
The producer's expectations for an ADC are the same as for cables and amps.  It should be transparent.
 
The technical reference is the live mic feed, i.e. how close does the un-coverted, all analog chain sound vs the digital one?  That's pretty much as good of a reference as you can get -- better than a master tape.
 
The lack of obsession over ADCs isn't due to 'tradition', it's due to the ADC being viewed as a solved problem.  Think of it this way: once upon a time, IT guys cared a lot about the NICs installed in PCs because of issues relating to drivers, IRQ conflicts, etc. 3Com built a huge business around it.  Now nobody worries about such issues.  They're solved problems and everybody uses whatever NIC/WiFi chip is built into the motherboard of the computer. It's not because of tradition, it's because it's not worth worrying about.  They're all viewed as good enough. 

 

[FrivolsListener]

  I want a Yggdrasil Uber........    

 
Yggdrasil is the most Uber, and will get kept there.
 
It's like saying, "I want to add 1 to infinity."

 

[watchnerd]

  If all the pros use similar DS ADCs, everyone's ear has become trained on that technology's artifacts. 

 
Here's the other thing to remember: microphones aren't even close to the level of measured goodness as the rest of the hardware chain.
 
Microphones, as transducers, are as different from one another as speakers or headphones.  They *all* impose a signature on the sound and those differences can mask pretty much everything else.

 

[rtaylor76]

   
Yggdrasil is the most Uber, and will get kept there.
 
It's like saying, "I want to add 1 to infinity."

 
But Nigel Tufnel's amps went to 11. It was one louder. 

 

[aamer23]

  My lack of respect for delta sigma DACs is only slightly exceeded by the same for sigma delta A2D converters - they are suitable for cheap (oops, inexpensive) prosumer stuff.  How much is it worth for a user to digitize their vinyl??  Think about it.  If they were making original recordings, it would be worth a bit more.  Easy to do for Bifrost money or less, and amazing in the context of all of the other insipid stuff out there.
 
To do a real multi-bit megacomboburrito deal recording at balanced in at 24 bit 250-500KHz sampling rate AES/EBU out (USB is for children and feral wannabe engineers) as good as the stuff I made (Gain 1) for Mobile Fidelity is going to cost like an Yggy.  But it will be really *** good.  How many people really need that?  Wants and needs are different.

when can we have one

 

[rtaylor76]

  How many people really need that?  Wants and needs are different.

 
Don't know how many, but any mastering or recording engineer could use one and spend more than a Yggy on quality sigma delta ADCs. There is a small pro market for that type of encoding. Mostly guys and gals doing tape transfers or out of their analog SSL or Neve or API or Harrison or Trident or MCI or (insert vintage and/or analog console or summing bus here). 
 
So there is a market for quality 2-channel ADC, albeit a smaller pro market. And to some enthusiasts who want to preserve their precious out of print vinyl to a digital medium.
 
Just look at the current Sweetwater 2-Channel converters here. If you filter out the ones that are just DACs, you will see the lowest price one (and a very good one I might add) it the RME ADI-2 at just below $1K. The Drawmer is $1.6K, and the Antelope is $2.2K. I know this is not the whole list of available ADCs, but even the Mytek is around the $1K range (higher or lower depending on if you need 192 vs 96), but the RME sounds better and has a great DAC. And there are some studios around here in Music City that love that expensive Crane Song box and swear by it.
 
But alas, I know Jason does not want to get into the pro market. I don't see why not. Some of these guys would love, and I bet are already loving, the Yggy.

 

[kstuart]

  My lack of respect for delta sigma DACs is only slightly exceeded by the same for sigma delta A2D converters - they are suitable for cheap (oops, inexpensive) prosumer stuff.  How much is it worth for a user to digitize their vinyl??  Think about it.  If they were making original recordings, it would be worth a bit more.  Easy to do for Bifrost money or less, and amazing in the context of all of the other insipid stuff out there.
 
To do a real multi-bit megacomboburrito deal recording at balanced in at 24 bit 250-500KHz sampling rate AES/EBU out (USB is for children and feral wannabe engineers) as good as the stuff I made (Gain 1) for Mobile Fidelity is going to cost like an Yggy.  But it will be really *** good.  How many people really need that?  Wants and needs are different.

I own a Bifrost Multibit which is my main music playback device.  And I just finished a 2 day audition of the Gungnir Multibit (out of curiosity).
 
I have a rather large collection of 1980s and 1990s CDs purchased on release.  This includes a number of Gain 1 Mobile Fidelity CDs.  After Jason's comment a few months ago that you had designed the Gain 1 using the burrito filter, I went back and listened to them using the Bifrost Multibit.
 
To be honest, they do not sound any better than any other well engineered CD.  I have yet to find one Gain 1 CD that is the best digital version of that album.  In fact, I have yet to hear any Mobile Fidelity digital release that is the best digital version of an album.  ( To quote Jason " I have not heard everything. ")  Part of the problem is that Mobile Fidelity is famous for using a U-shaped EQ on everything - which makes the bass and drums too high in the mix.
 
I own many copies of "Dark Side of the Moon" in all formats.  My test tracks always include something from it.  Recently, a vinyl-obsessed friend did a digital copy of an original UK vinyl pressing from 1973 - using the RME ADI-2 ADC.  This sounds clearly better than any professional digital release.  The obvious conclusion is that the constant churning out of millions of copies of the album quickly wore all the original tapes - even the 1985 CD is less lifelike.
 
Note that I am not making any point in favor or against anything.  I own a lot of Schiit gear and plan to buy more.
 
However, my experience is that the ADC is not an important factor.  The DAC is far more important.  I would have not predicted this, but there it is.

 

[jacal01]

  I want a Yggdrasil Uber........    

 
That's an interesting thought, a Ygg that had both DAC and ADC sections, altho I doubt if there would be much overlap between circuit components, so that it'd prolly be almost twice as expensive and with a 1½ sized footprint, to boot.  And flies in the face of their single function component philosophy for tailoring setups for preference and need.
 
I no longer own any vinyl, but I do like the argument of having a top quality, spelled multibit, home ADC component to transfer treasured vinyl collections to server audio files for future proofing.  Who knows how extensive that potential market still is, but we do know that vinyl collection is alive and growing...  May actually be a viable Schiit product even at yggy pricing if it can tout comparable performance. 
 
We may yet become spoiled with a plethora of audiophilic abundance.  If Mike and Jason can somehow convince themselves that they wouldn't take it in the shorts with this one.  Certainly the ADC topic is recurrent here.

 

[sheldaze]

  I for one do feel brand loyalty to Schiit Audio, and a strong desire to stay with them and help them be successful.  The reason for this loyalty is:  Schiit introduced me to my first decent desktop stack - the UberBi/Asgard2.  Then I discovered excellent HP music SQ.  Then I upgraded my Schiit to the G -> GMB and the Mjolnir.  Next move is the Yggy and probably Rag.  How many of you on this thread are in the same or a similar boat to me?
 
Just, as always, IMHO.

I have walked this path. In 2014, hearing my HD650 played through the Schiit Fulla is what brought me back. I'd given up on HiFi headphones, other than the HD650 tucked away in a closet. However it still makes me grin to have someone, who has just stepped away from listening to a Yggy/Rag stack plug their headphones next into a Fulla and exclaim, there's something good about that too!

 

[RCBinTN]

Regarding the need (want?) for balance control on HP equipment, I learned a lesson today.  With one ear slightly down due to ??, and a balance control on the BHA-1, I was still able to achieve a nicely balanced sound.  Never thought I'd use the balance control, until now.  Just IMO and FYI, as always my fellow Head-Fiers.
 
Update!  Fixed the problem and re-set the balance to center.  Thanks, Debrox!

 

[watchnerd]

  Regarding the need (want?) for balance control on HP equipment, I learned a lesson today.  With one ear slightly down due to ??, and a balance control on the BHA-1, I was still able to achieve a nicely balanced sound.  Never thought I'd use the balance control, until now.  Just IMO and FYI, as always my fellow Head-Fiers.

 
Yeah, a small adjustment can make a huge difference.
 
I do it in software when I must, but would prefer to do it in HW.  
 
Because digital volume control is the devil.

 

[AudioMan612]

 
Those are multi thousand dollar ADC's .I am sure they are good. But I think you are missing the point, just because there are companies out there making something, does not mean it cannot be done better or in a different way. Apple Did not have that attitude when Big Blue ruled the world. No one cares what IBM is up to any more even in the Enterprise Level IT world. There was mention of the GAIN I ADC. The person responsible for that ADC (Baldr) is part of the Schiit team. The Thetas (Baldr designed as well) are Highly regarded DACS the GAIN I ADC's seem to hold just as high regard, if not higher. I don't get the argument that the In House Team at Schiit would not be able to produce a product that hits far above it's price point and on the higher end of things just knock the ball out of the Park

I never said it couldn't be done.  I said it would be a unique challenge, and probably harder to make the big splash they made in the DAC market.

   
This is very true.  And I think most hi-fi hobbyists would be well-served to understand more about the production chain.  
 
Much more time is spent worrying microphone choice (they're transducers, after all, and all of them have a sound of their own) than on, say, choice of cables.

Yeah.  I had no idea how big a deal mic placement was until my friend who got me my job started building his own studio years ago.  In addition to microphone choice, microphone preamp choice makes an enormous difference as well.  Above all, I agree on trying to learn about the production chain.  It's a whole different animal with (in my opinion), even more to learn about than hi-fi.

I rarely hear people worrying about cables, other than when there is clearly a problem.  Get some good quality XLR's (star-quad if you have interference problems) and worry about more important things, unless you are a really rich studio that can afford to worry about every tiny little detail that may or may not make an audible difference (nothing wrong with this, it's just not a high priority).
 
Another thing I've found interesting is the difference in how people work with tape vs digital.  While it's not used for most of your big mainstream records, analog tape is by no means gone.  There are plenty of artists and studios that still use it (including some larger artists, such as the Foo Fighters).  Steve Albini, who runs Electrical Audio and has produced tons of records, still only uses tape for his own recordings.  There are still vinyl records coming out today that were never converted to digital at anytime, though this is obviously not the norm anymore.