Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Jun 9, 2020 at 4:31 PM Post #60,316 of 150,618
A quick question - I have the Asgard 3 and I really love the way it sounds with my HD800S. How would you describe the differences between the Asgard 3 and the Jotunheim?
IMO they will both be similar.

You can get into all the differences in the actual design, SE vs balanced etc...discrete stuff, contunuity, Class A vs AB etc...

But for the sound will one be "better" than the other, one has more power etc....this will only be determined by you listening with your stuff and music.

IMO either one is good...if I had to choose I would choose the Jot over the A3 for the HD800s. Reason is the HD800s IMO are too thin overall and bass is on the light side...
and the JOT might just add something on the low side....had both here and both are just great...

Alex
 
Jun 9, 2020 at 5:19 PM Post #60,317 of 150,618
reasonably so. i'm one of the two electronics engineers who responded to Jason's Engineer's Quiz a while back, but I don't design audio products for a living. I find Jason's Chapters very interesting reading, especially the technical parts involving circuit topology and innovative design.

say hi to Costanza for me.
Touché!!
Constanza is laughing in my face now.
 
Jun 9, 2020 at 5:36 PM Post #60,319 of 150,618
I bought a Lyr because I loved the idea of buying a product called Schiit. I replaced my Lyr a couple years later with a Mjolnir 2 because I wanted to try a balanced headphone and I loved what Schiit was doing. I replaced my Mjolnir with a different brand because I invested in electrostatic headphones, but I would have bought more Schiit if that product had existed. I own Gugnir MB and Yggdrasil DACs. I am happy Schiit has a diverse and ever-evolving product line. Anyone who has been paying attention (or reading Jason's book since the beginning) knows that the only reason this company exists is because the owners are having fun and enjoy creating value. So bring on the diversity and keep it coming. And do whatever you want to do - if it suits my needs I'll buy it.
Please do not forget to officially note somewhere that the Mjolnir 2 replacement has to be sent to me in case you die earlier than I do.
 
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Jun 9, 2020 at 5:45 PM Post #60,320 of 150,618
This was my thought process: "If I get the Modius, I need the Jotunheim to take full advantage of it. But the Jot is desperately due for an update, and with 29 products out, is it going to get a revamp/replacement? Maybe they will come out with a cheaper amp with a balanced input and SE output only.

I don’t know where this meme that the Jotenheim is due for an upgrade came from. Certainly not this board - it must have started on one of those “other” boards, perhaps one of the ones that only measure gear and don’t actually listen to it.

The Jot is not due for an upgrade. It probably won’t be due for an upgrade for years. Why? The analogue stage is solidly great, and the digital side is upgradeable.

Just like any of their other modular amps, if they come out with a better DAC you’ll be able to replace your existing one, if you have it. Or if they come out with a moving coil modular stage. Or anything.

The Jotenheim is not going to be upgraded any time soon. It doesn’t need to be.
If it meets your use case, just buy it and get on with life and listening. You won’t regret it, no buyers remorse necessary... ♥
.
 
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Jun 9, 2020 at 5:51 PM Post #60,322 of 150,618
Please do not forget to officially note somewhere that the Mjolnir 2 replacement has to be sent to me in case you die earlier than I die.
Of course! I have taped your address to the bottom of the chassis.
 
Jun 9, 2020 at 6:10 PM Post #60,323 of 150,618
I don’t know where this meme that the Jotenheim is due for an upgrade came from. Certainly not this board - it must have started on one of those “other” boards, perhaps one of the ones that only measure gear and don’t actually listen to it.

The Jot is not due for an upgrade. It probably won’t be due for an upgrade for years. Why? The analogue stage is solidly great, and the digital side is upgradeable.

Just like any of their other modular amps, if they come out with a better DAC you’ll be able to replace your existing one, if you have it. Or if they come out with a moving coil modular stage. Or anything.

The Jotenheim is not going to be upgraded any time soon. It doesn’t need to be.
If it meets your use case, just buy it and get on with life and listening. You won’t regret it, no buyers remorse necessary... ♥
.
So this is how fake news starts lol. I am getting misquoted and this phrase about the Jot is taken out of context. I was just expressing a paranoia-driven typical audiophile thought process consisting of buying a piece of equipment that potentially gets obsoleted the next day.

As for those other forums that I frequent, one of them (sbaf) is already convinced that the Jot already received a silent revision quite a while ago, so that actually reinforces the idea of the Jot being here to stay.

Of course, all this does not preclude the possibility of a lower priced amp combining the best of both worlds - using the balanced interconnects between the DAC and the amp to avoid RFI and EMI, and single ended output to minimize internal amp noise and let us use the headphone cables we already own. $299? Sign me up!
 
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Jun 9, 2020 at 6:28 PM Post #60,324 of 150,618
It's amazing how the same discussions, debates and diatribes that have been going around among audio fans since the invention of Hi Fi continue to go around. And nothing in all that time has changed. The bottom line is: if it sounds good to you then it is, and it doesn't matter what anyone else or any "expert" might think about your choice. Just enjoy the music.
Amen! :beerchug:
 
Jun 9, 2020 at 6:44 PM Post #60,325 of 150,618
It's amazing how the same discussions, debates and diatribes that have been going around among audio fans since the invention of Hi Fi continue to go around. And nothing in all that time has changed. The bottom line is: if it sounds good to you then it is, and it doesn't matter what anyone else or any "expert" might think about your choice. Just enjoy the music.

Whew. For a minute there I thought you said that diabetes was going around in audiophile circles.
 
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Jun 9, 2020 at 6:49 PM Post #60,326 of 150,618
Hehe, mine breaks down to be 83, 5, 7, 2.5, 2.5
So you're telling me I should get a pair of 30.7s? I'll let you pass that one by my wife
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Jun 9, 2020 at 7:07 PM Post #60,327 of 150,618
So, what is the most important ? The source, the amplification or the transducer? I think it's a combined effort, and here's why:

Now I've seen a lot of almost philosophical approaches to hi-fi, or rather music-reproduction. Let me give you my 2 cents.

It has been a while, but I've been selling Hifi-equipment for fifteen years, hearing and weighing the weirdest arguments. Usually there are three sides or convictions..

A. The source is the most important. Obviously, if you start with a crappy signal how can you expect good results ?
I think they are correct. If you use a bad recording, or a good recording on a bad source, a good set-up should let you hear just that. It should sound like a bad start.

B. The amplification is the most important. It's like the engine in your car: There's no substitute for cubic inches.. You need power to move !
I think they are correct. If you use an amplifier that can't control the movement of your speakers ( or headphones ) how can you expect to enjoy the end result. Your transducer will do all kinds of things it is not supposed to do.. That makes for a bad finish as well.

C. The loudspeaker/headphone is by far the most important. If the air that reaches your eardrums isn't moving correctly, what can you expect ? It'll all be a waste of time and money..
I think they are correct. If that beautiful and electronically correct signal is not translated into moving air-molecules the way it is supposed to.. Well, what's the point of it all, really.

D. was mostly not even considered until I mentioned it. Room acoustics. Just compare a heavily carpeted bedroom to a fully tiled-up bathroom. Headphones were the perfect solution for D. Nowadays you can use digital room-correction software we didn't have back then, Dirac comes to mind.

F. are the cables, powerlines etcetera, but believe me, it follows the same pattern.

Now my own enjoying-music philosophy has always been a combination. For comparison I used four sheets of glass to look through. All four ( three if you use headphones ) are dirty. You can see what's on the other side, but the view is murky at best. To get a better view you start cleaning one of the glass sheets. After a proper cleaning you put it back, and who would have guessed.. The entire picture looks a little better.
So, it was not that difficult to convince anyone who was completely and utterly stuck on either A,B or C that it was pointless to spend hours ( translate that into a lot of money ) on their sheet of glass if the other sheets were still rather dirty.. Clean up the dirtiest ( there's always one ) and enjoy the view.. ehh.. music.. Then look for your next project.

I just replaced my Asgard3 with a Jotunheim, and I hear the difference, even with my cheapo sennheiser earbuds, more so with my HD660S.

Like I said, just my 2 cents..

Eagerly awaiting my Modius sometimes next week..
I like your sheets of glass analogy.

Going through A-F:
A) Yes, you're not going to make a bad source sound better, but at least in the modern digital to analog world, the differences between the sound coming from the DAC in my iPhone vs. a TOTL $100,000 DAC, are nowhere near the differences between good and bad speakers. So the weight put on this portion of the audio chain in terms of dollars spent, shouldn't be too great. In the case of my own system, 20% of the cost went into Yggdrasil, four years ago, which may be more than is warranted relative to the rest of my system, but I still have no feeling like I need to upgrade here. If you're heavily into vinyl (that's what I grew up with), then you should be spending far more than what I have into my turntable and cartridge.
B & C) I think these go together to a large degree. There are some very good, efficient, but expensive speakers on the market, that don't require the same level of amplification as say a pair of Magnepans. I think the end goal should be to maximize the sound quality to your ears and spend the least amount of money on the speakers and power amps combined, but where they are a good match for each other. I guess you could say the same thing about the whole system overall, although matching the amps to the speakers isn't just a matter of sound quality of each of them independent of the other.
D) This is very overlooked (with speakers). I recently moved my speakers about 6" farther away from the wall and adjusted them so they weren't toed in as much. The difference was dramatic. I need to spend more time playing around with this to try to find the ideal positioning for my room and seating position.
F) I wouldn't want to be using some scrawny, unshielded RCA cables that came free with a $100 piece of gear I purchased years ago, to connect components in my $10,000 system, but good quality cables don't need to cost much. Power cables? There's 50' of ordinary 12 gauge Romex running between my electrical panel and the duplex receptacle that most of my audio system is feeding off of. Having the last 3-4' of electrical cord being made out of cryogenically treated, silver plated, 8 gauge braided wire, isn't going to make a difference, unless maybe those cables are designed to shield the AC from affecting the signal of line level cables that they are near? In the tangled mess of cables coming out of your audio components, my understanding is that it's best to keep AC power cords away from your other cables if possible, and that if they need to cross paths, it's better to do so at a 90 degree angle than to run parallel for any length. If there's noise on that circuit from fluorescent lights, motors, etc. that may be an issue, depending on the components and their power supplies.

There's no magical proportion of what should be spent on various parts of the system. There's something nice in feeling like one or more parts of your system are at a level of performance that you don't see yourself wanting to upgrade them for many years. That's the way I feel about my speakers, my Aegir amps, and my Yggdrasil A1. Before I got my Salk speakers, I checked with Jim Salk to ask if it would be okay to temporarily use a an older Harman Kardon AV receiver that I had, as my power amp. It's a heavy receiver with class A/B amplification. You could probably buy one used today for $40-50. That was driving my new $5000 pair of speakers for some time. I clearly had no plans for that to be the long term amp solution, but it was a short term solution, and I'm happy with the approach I took. I would rather do that than have ordered a lesser speaker and a new amp at the same time, but always felt that I made a compromise and that I wanted to upgrade both of them down the road.

I think that turntables and cartridges are a very mature market, and we're not seeing dramatic improvements, so a $1000 well spent today, should still represent a good value five years from now, assuming that you like vinyl.

Amplifiers seem to be a fairly mature market. Jason and others outside of Schiit continue to come up with new ideas. Class D amps I'm sure will continue to improve. From an audiophile standpoint though, even Schiit's relatively new Aegir is being compared to many vintage class A amps. There's just a lot money that goes into the materials to create a great amplifier, until someone is perhaps able to come up with a much better class D implementation. As far as headamps are concerned, I would guess that it falls in the same category.

Speakers and headphones again seem to be a fairly mature market. People are obviously always coming up with new designs. No doubt that there continue to be better materials available, and computer analysis probably helps aid in designing better drivers and overall systems, and just over time, people will come up with better overall sounding systems, because who wants to listen to something that sounds worse than yesterday's HD800 or HE-6.

DACs seem to me seem like the one place in particular that the product that you buy today could easily be surpassed in terms of performance, by something far cheaper, just a few years down the road. You can't recreate a turntable, or a power amp, or a speaker/headphone on a $1 chip, but it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibilities that Yggdrasil type performance could be on a $1 chip down the road. I'm not an EE, so there may be any number of considerations that I'm overlooking, which partially refute that. I've been enjoying my Yggdrasil for 4+ years and have no desire to upgrade, but it seems to me like the most likely candidate to be an anchor weight down the road, or at least be somewhat ordinary in terms of performance. Based on that, I wouldn't recommend spending big money on a DAC, until you're really quite happy with your headphones/headamp or speakers/power amp(s).
 
Jun 9, 2020 at 7:26 PM Post #60,328 of 150,618
So this is how fake news starts lol. I am getting misquoted and this phrase about the Jot is taken out of context. I was just expressing a paranoia-driven typical audiophile thought process consisting of buying a piece of equipment that potentially gets obsoleted the next day.

As for those other forums that I frequent, one of them (sbaf) is already convinced that the Jot already received a silent revision quite a while ago, so that actually reinforces the idea of the Jot being here to stay.

Of course, all this does not preclude the possibility of a lower priced amp combining the best of both worlds - using the balanced interconnects between the DAC and the amp to avoid RFI and EMI, and single ended output to minimize internal amp noise and let us use the headphone cables we already own. $299? Sign me up!

Jason did mention that over the production lifetime of Magni 3, there were changes (3 times IIRC) because the output transistors were obsoleted by the semiconductor manufacturers. Such parts replacements could impact the PCB (hence a PCB Assy rev number bump) to fit a different transistor case (e.g. TO-252 vs TO-243AA) or some added resistors, caps, diodes to necessary to change the compensation scheme because of differences between the obsoleted and replacement parts. More than likely, a similar thing happened to Jotunheim.

Personally, I would like to see the nexus topology, which is already realized in Freya for line level pre-amp and Ragnarok 2 speaker amp available in a design optimized to drive normal efficiency planar and dynamic headphones, with a slight optimization towards the lower impedance planars. Regular 4-gang RK27 volume pot if in a Jotunheim-sized chassis, or remote relay-based attenuator if in Freya / Mjolnir sized unit.
 
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Jun 9, 2020 at 7:39 PM Post #60,330 of 150,618
piece of equipment that potentially gets obsoleted the next day.
But it really doesnt get obsoleted the next day...it still works as well as it does....obsoleted is a strong word...kind of tells me my older gear is well el crapo and its not...but I do understand your meaning....and thats fine. It only would be obsoleted if it didnt handle a new format etc...Schiit doesnt do MQA or DSD and other stuff and it doesnt make it obsolete.

When I bought a B1 and then the B2 comes out, well like many I had buyers remorse for a short time and then really understood why Schiit did what it did and then they offerred the $100 discount to B1 owners....great and I sold the B1 and bought a B2...and I still think the b1 is not obsolete in anyway.

I dont know about the silent revision in the Jot...sbaf or not....my Jot works well, very well. Its just a rumor until I see the evidence...lol
 

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