[evillamer]

So can we say that Schiit specs is best used for reference to compare between various Schiit gears since they are measured using the instrumentation and the same level of conservatism? 
 
Jason's post also kinda explains why measurements differ between manufacturer listed specs vs reviewer/user's measurements.
 
It kinda reminds me of PC benchmarks and how some companies "cheat" or use specs to fool the consumers. Nvidia recently got sued for their 3.5GB vram issue.

 

[murrays]

Also you have to take into account that when you go below -100 dBV even the thermal noise across resistors becomes significant.
An online calculator (such as <http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-noise.htm>) will show that the noise across a single 10k ohm resistor is about -114 dBV.
At 1.8 microvolts, this is around the "20 bit" resolution level.

 

[StanD]

Gee, tube amps have SNR's less than 100 dB. Look at Woo's stuff, you will typically see a figure of >95 dB, so it's safe to assume it's also less than 96 dB. All this noise about noise 

You want noise that you can really hear, turn on the TV.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

Hey all,
 
Okay, I've done some thread cleanup.
 
To keep things from turning into an eternal argument about specs (which I mentioned in my previous post), some things have been culled, and one post has been edited to remove inaccurate pricing information on our side and crowdfunded price on the other (retail price TBD, I'm sure.) I've tried to keep the spirit of the "our specs" vs "their specs" discussion.
 
Bottom line, we measure the way we measure, other companies measure the way they measure, and it is not my place to comment on this further, other than to disambiguate how we go about it. Sit down, have a listen, and decide for yourself, and let's please get beyond this pointless spec-sheet/theoretical-world comparisons. 
 
All the best,
Jason

 

[catspaw]

  Hey guys,
 
With respect to specs, we spec our stuff VERY conservatively, based on actual production products, and with no warts removed.
 
Hence watts RMS per channel, not peak or single-channel, SNR specs referenced to 1V or 2V out, unweighted, not vs full-power, A-weighted, THD at several times our worst case measurements, not based on one prototype that is magically better than others (it happens), crosstalk from 20-20 kHz, not at 1kHz only. 
 
As an example, we can measure Ragnarok SNR vs full output, rather than our conservative rating, and minus the 2x fudge factor we usually apply--in other words, like many power amp companies do. Then its modest 103dB SNR is suddenly 136dB.
 
Wowsers! It's a miracle!
 
Actually no. Just a good example of how specs are usually not much more than dickwaving, or, as has been said, "lies, damn lies, and statistics." They have very little to do with how the product sounds, and are only a great basis for endless arguments based on knee-jerk reactions and superficial understanding rather than any substantive discussion.
 
With respect to other stuff that has come up, my views are very simple: there are tons of great products out there, and no business model is invalid if the customers are happy. As a manufacturer, it's not my place to comment on them (nor is it in good taste.) If you'd like to continue veering into this territory, I think it's time for a thread cleanup.
 
All the best,
Jason

In a way, that is far smarter than you think.
If you have good gear, you can put a smily face where the specs would go, and people will still buy it (ear to ear, or shall we say audio forums like this work wonders) and you also limit the possible lawsuits when someone wants to check your measurements and get something from you for free.
 
I have a Schiit asgard and Most people who come to my house can understand why their so much more awesome receiver sounds worse.
I dont really have to know how or why, when I get something that good for that price. Thats what I call trusting a company.

 

[Puma Cat]

+1!

 

[Puma Cat]

  Hey all,
 
Okay, I've done some thread cleanup.
 
To keep things from turning into an eternal argument about specs (which I mentioned in my previous post), some things have been culled, and one post has been edited to remove inaccurate pricing information on our side and crowdfunded price on the other (retail price TBD, I'm sure.) I've tried to keep the spirit of the "our specs" vs "their specs" discussion.
 
Bottom line, we measure the way we measure, other companies measure the way they measure, and it is not my place to comment on this further, other than to disambiguate how we go about it. Sit down, have a listen, and decide for yourself, and let's please get beyond this pointless spec-sheet/theoretical-world comparisons. 
 
All the best,
Jason

 
+1

 

[StanT]

Unless you have the ability to design, construct, and fund a product yourself, everything that you buy is going to be a compromise. Even if you have that ability, you'll need to compromise if you intend to sell it to others.
 
I find my Ragnarok to be a very nice product that fills a lot of the things I was missing in my audio setup. It also has a few idiosyncrasies that I find annoying. I bought one, it will stay around for a decade or so, and I can work with what it does.
 
I won't be buying a Pono. It doesn't really meet a need that I have. I really don't get the criticism in the press. Neil Young has been outspoken and a bit wacky for decades. That said, if you've listened to the remastering work that he's done on his own catalog, he is serious and qualified to talk to audio quality. Neil Young and CSNY albums that I've listened to forever have never sounded better.
 
If Neil and Pono poke the industry into providing better, remastered sources, then this is win / win for all of us.

 

[evillamer]

specs, measurements and reviews are important for international customers like myself where I am unable to find demo units to test the gears and sometimes having to buy equipment solely on the words and measurements of others.

 

[Clemmaster]

specs, measurements and reviews are important for international customers like myself where I am unable to find demo units to test the gears and sometimes having to buy equipment solely on the words and measurements of others.

The thing is: you don't have to and you really shouldn't!
 
Otherwise, do yourself a favor and get a O2 and ODAC. Measurement is what they're all about.

 

[evillamer]

Speaking of which, does schitt have any official dealers or distributors in Singapore? Wish to demo the Ragnarok and hopefully the Yggdrasil.

Also warranty returns for international customers is quite expensive and time consuming task.

 

[kstuart]

 

specs, measurements and reviews are important for international customers like myself where I am unable to find demo units to test the gears and sometimes having to buy equipment solely on the words and measurements of others.

The thing is: you don't have to and you really shouldn't!
 
Otherwise, do yourself a favor and get a O2 and ODAC. Measurement is what they're all about.

This comes from the change, over the last several decades, from personal interaction to automated mass interaction.
 
Back in the 20th Century, I had a doctor who could examine you and pretty much tell what was wrong with you - from very long experience - without any "tests" (think "House MD").   Nowadays, doctors have shifted to numerical tests - such as "Total Cholestorol" - even though scientifically they have never been proven to indicate anything (look it up).
 
Similarly, people used to go to a stereo store and listen to gear.  Nowadays, customers (like the one quoted) are 10,000 miles from gear.  So, companies love the idea of someone evaluating the gear by looking at a number on the web site, requiring no human interaction at all.
 
However, measurements and specifications have yet to be shown to have the capability of indicating good sound.  Maybe some day, but not yet. (They do have a utility for designers, to give feedback on changes made.) So, you have to listen for yourself, which is why Schiit has a Return Policy allowing you to return it if you do not like the  sound.
 
I recommend that Schiit remove all measurements and specifications from their site for this reason.

 

[OddE]

  However, measurements and specifications have yet to be shown to have the capability of indicating good sound.  Maybe some day, but not yet. (They do have a utility for designers, to give feedback on changes made.)

 
-I know it is not good latin to point this out outside Sound Science, but it is my professional opinion as a certified electrical engineer who has done his fair share of signal processing and circuit design (mostly digital, but also some analog) that the above statement simply is not accurate.
 
Most people - myself included - have a hard time translating specs into an accurate impression of what a particular piece of gear will sound like, seeing as what constitutes 'good' is a very subjective criterium to judge anything by, especially if 'good' deviates from 'neutral'.
 
That, however, does not mean that measurements and specifications do not have the capability to indicate good sound. It is just a matter of educating the people reading said specs. I, for one, struggle my way through the Philips Golden Ears challenge to try to learn myself how to more precisely recognize and describe what I like and do not like when it comes to audio.

 

[evillamer]

Also it has been known in the pc hardware industry that reviewers can get "golden samples" of e.g. A higher performing SSD drive than what a consumer will get(a slower drive) if he buys off amazon.

Not sure if this happens on the audiophile world, but my guess is that it might, as in reviewers get hand picked best performing unit.

Purrin had reported issues with a certain vendors(not Schiit) dac that had a rev 2 that sounded worse than the first rev.

 

[superjawes]

-I know it is not good latin to point this out outside Sound Science, but it is my professional opinion as a certified electrical engineer who has done his fair share of signal processing and circuit design (mostly digital, but also some analog) that the above statement simply is not accurate.

Most people - myself included - have a hard time translating specs into an accurate impression of what a particular piece of gear will sound like, seeing as what constitutes 'good' is a very subjective criterium to judge anything by, especially if 'good' deviates from 'neutral'.

That, however, does not mean that measurements and specifications do not have the capability to indicate good sound. It is just a matter of educating the people reading said specs. I, for one, struggle my way through the Philips Golden Ears challenge to try to learn myself how to more precisely recognize and describe what I like and do not like when it comes to audio.

I think I've said something like this before (in this thread), but the most important thing about numbers is: they have to mean something. You can find plenty of numbers to describe a thing, but not all of them will be relevant to your purposes. If you look at computer components, you can measure clock speeds, power consumption, voltages, etc., but the only thing that matters is performance (which gamers usually quantify with FPS).

With audio--especially analog audio--there are many variables that may or may not make a difference. You also should notice that something like frequency response is graphed over a continuous spectrum, and not in discrete bits (discrete bits are much easier to list on a spec page, while intepreting a FR graph can get sticky). That on its own allows for a level of variability that can't easily be quantified, especially when you take piece-to-piece variation into account.

So the best method, IMO, is to use the numbers as a guideline, trust your ears, and don't overspend for nothing. If you like the sound, that's really all that matters, but you can try to get that without breaking the bank!