Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up

[Tim van der Leeuw]

"Some people" need to temper their impressions with a disclaimer: "In my system, based on my experience, XYZ is slightly more (dry, euphonic, etc) than ABC."

Here's the thing. To me, Bifrost 2 is our most neutral multibit DAC. It may skew very slightly warm, but it's very slight. But that's to me, in my system (I run a bunch of amps on top of the Bifrost 2, but also I'm using darker headphones, like Ether 2s and such). And that's my perception. Someone else may have a totally different view.

And another thing...let's emphasize SLIGHT. We all like to make changes seem like they're night and day, especially when a product costs a ton of money. But the reality is that the changes are gonna be relatively small, when compared with any transducer. At the recent Multibit vs delta-sigma blind listening we did at the Schiitr, the one consistent comment was that the differences were smaller than expected. (To me, subjectively, the tonality changes were relatively small, but the soundstage changes were larger, when compared to the blind tube listening.) But again, this was a flawed test. We'll be re-doing it next month with 4 DACs (Modi 3, Modi Multibit, Gungnir D/S, and Gungnir Multibit), with an Avermetrics brought for level-matching and instant switching thanks to a new streaming system. Then we'll see how it goes.

I'll be very interested to hear the outcome of such a test. I'd also like to hear where the Bifrost 2 will stand in comparison.

Last Saturday we did a listening-test at an audio dealer, comparing a Ragnarok 2 (which I brought) + Bluesound Node 2i vs a NAIM Unity Atom (streamer, DAC, amp all-in-one. Class A/B amp, 40 wpc into 8 ohm. DAC is unknown, "a SHARC chip is all I could find about it).

The analog outputs of the Node 2i were fed into the Ragnarok, the optical output into the NAIM.

We listened to various songs, pairing both amps with various speakers until we settled on DynAudio Special 40 as best sounding with both amps (KEF LS50 was not tried, lacking bass, but KEF R3 was the most disappointing speaker).

With all music, the NAIM Atom Unity sounded better than the Ragnarok 2 + Node 2i ... More musical. Richer. Better in the low end. A tad more detail.

However, when we hooked up the analog outputs of the Node 2i to the NAIM Atom and started to compare optical vs analog input into the NAIM Atom, to compare the DACs of Node 2i and the NAIM ... the conclusion was that all that extra musicality richness came from the NAIM's DAC.

Now...

At this point we hooked up the Modi 3 as DAC. The optical signal from the Node 2i went into the Modi 3, and the analog out of Modi 3 went into the Ragnarok 2.

And the music fell flat on it's face.

This was much worse than the other DACs. Rounded off highs -- not bad per se, but it resulted in lost detail. Soundstaging? Imaging? Gone.
As one of the people in the room said, with the other DACs, he could place the voice of the singer clearly on the podium, feeling presence. With the modi 3? The voice was somewhere in the room, but impossible to locate.
Lots of detail was lost. (At this point we were listening to the song "Bauhaus Chair" from the band Nits streaming from Tidal).



We switched to something operatic, can't recall what, and my wife just couldn't listen to it. Plugging in one of the other DACs again, the music became enjoyable again.

So I'm very sorry to say, the Modi 3 might be a fine headphone DAC -- the D/S DAC card in my Jotunheim performs great with headphones -- but to my ears it has no place in a hi-fi system. This was a disappointment to all of us, including the people from the shop.

It will have to go back.

And if I'm to keep the Ragnarok 2, I'll have to find a better DAC to go with it then I've listened to so far. (The NAIM Unity Atom is an all in one unit, so we couldn't hook up that DAC to the Ragnarok.)

If the Modi Multibit is only a small difference with the Modi 3, I'm afraid that's no option to me either. So I'm very much interested in how the other DACs in the Schiit lineup compare. The next test you are doing can't come soon enough for me.

Anyway we will soon be trying out various DACs this store has available. I would prefer to keep the Ragnarok and have an open, extensible system rather than a closed all-in-one box, but I have to admit it did sound compellingly good...

PS: Something might be gained by adding a Loki in between the Node 2i streaming DAC, and the Ragnarok 2. But they're currently in backorder so I won't be able to try that out before the next listening test.

PS 2: After some emails back and forth with Dennis from Schiit Europe I ordered the Bifrost 2. Looking forward to trying it out.

 

[ScubaMan2017]

Idle, coffee-drinking-on-a-Sunday morning (before the bread-pudding-comes-out-of-the-oven) question: on a scale of 1 to 5 (1 = the same ... 5 = if piped into a Modi Multibit, completely different), how would users compare the USB-Unison(tm) technology to the converting-USB-to-SPIDIF processing of my EITR?
Yep, it's an unfair comparison.
Nope, I don't expect consensus.

 

[Yethal]

Just placed an order for Ragnarok 2, can't wait for it to arrive.

On a somewhat related note, @Jason Stoddard will there ever be replacement Ragnarok 2 remotes available for sale?

 

[ScubaMan2017]

I'll be very interested to hear the outcome of such a test. I'd also like to hear where the Bifrost 2 will stand in comparison.

Last Saturday we did a listening-test at an audio dealer, comparing a Ragnarok 2 (which I brought) + Bluesound Node 2i vs a NAIM Unity Atom (streamer, DAC, amp all-in-one. Class A/B amp, 40 wpc into 8 ohm. DAC is unknown, "a SHARC chip is all I could find about it).

The analog outputs of the Node 2i were fed into the Ragnarok, the optical output into the NAIM.

We listened to various songs, pairing both amps with various speakers until we settled on DynAudio Special 40 as best sounding with both amps (KEF LS50 was not tried, lacking bass, but KEF R3 was the most disappointing speaker).

With all music, the NAIM Atom Unity sounded better than the Ragnarok 2 + Node 2i ... More musical. Richer. Better in the low end. A tad more detail.

However, when we hooked up the analog outputs of the Node 2i to the NAIM Atom and started to compare optical vs analog input into the NAIM Atom, to compare the DACs of Node 2i and the NAIM ... the conclusion was that all that extra musicality richness came from the NAIM's DAC.

Now...

At this point we hooked up the Modi 3 as DAC. The optical signal from the Node 2i went into the Modi 3, and the analog out of Modi 3 went into the Ragnarok 2.

And the music fell flat on it's face.

This was much worse than the other DACs. Rounded off highs -- not bad per se, but it resulted in lost detail. Soundstaging? Imaging? Gone.
As one of the people in the room said, with the other DACs, he could place the voice of the singer clearly on the podium, feeling presence. With the modi 3? The voice was somewhere in the room, but impossible to locate.
Lots of detail was lost. (At this point we were listening to the song "Bauhaus Chair" from the band Nits streaming from Tidal).



We switched to something operatic, can't recall what, and my wife just couldn't listen to it. Plugging in one of the other DACs again, the music became enjoyable again.

So I'm very sorry to say, the Modi 3 might be a fine headphone DAC -- the D/S DAC card in my Jotunheim performs great with headphones -- but to my ears it has no place in a hi-fi system. This was a disappointment to all of us, including the people from the shop.

It will have to go back.

And if I'm to keep the Ragnarok 2, I'll have to find a better DAC to go with it then I've listened to so far. (The NAIM Unity Atom is an all in one unit, so we couldn't hook up that DAC to the Ragnarok.)

If the Modi Multibit is only a small difference with the Modi 3, I'm afraid that's no option to me either. So I'm very much interested in how the other DACs in the Schiit lineup compare. The next test you are doing can't come soon enough for me.

Anyway we will soon be trying out various DACs this store has available. I would prefer to keep the Ragnarok and have an open, extensible system rather than a closed all-in-one box, but I have to admit it did sound compellingly good...

PS: Something might be gained by adding a Loki in between the Node 2i streaming DAC, and the Ragnarok 2. But they're currently in backorder so I won't be able to try that out before the next listening test.

I appreciated this post. And I respect your courage of noting the limitations of the Modi. I'm lucky: I need to stick with headphone-listening (to keep the peace in my home). That means I can remain satisfied with my current DAC set up (yeah, right... upgrade-itis is rearing its ugly head as my 50th birthday looms in 2020 [Gungnir-MB, I'm commin' fer ya baby]). I can focus my attention on picking up a dandy, closed-back, planar-magnetic, woo-woo-infested (?) pair of headphones.
Interesting post, @Tim van der Leeuw

 

[ScubaMan2017]

Put me down for Mike designing an uncompromising TOTL sign-magnitude discrete ladder DAC.

The moment transparent aluminum (Star Trek, The Voyage Home [nonsense from Professor Scott...movie-scene-link]) becomes available, and this device is bolted into it, I'll want that too!

 

[ScubaMan2017]

Some thoughts:

I own Yggdrasil and Bifrost Multibit...personally I notice a difference between them, but more importantly owning Yggdrasil has completely eliminated any nervosa about "whether there's anything better". I know I wouldn't want to spend more, and also have such respect for Mike/Jason that if this is what they released as TOTL, then that's good enough for me. =-)

Additionally, I quite enjoy having multiple systems, because instead of thinking of them as good/better/best, I try to discover their individual character and any parts of music that are revealed on one system vs another.

My original stack of Modi3 + Loki + Magni 3 is a work setup.

The Yggdrasil + Freya+ + Mjolnir 1 is connected to both headphones and some studio monitors for different experiences depending on my mood.

Lastly the Bifrost Multibit + Asgard 2 is a bedside table setup.

Oh, and I couldn't resist a black Asgard 3 at the current price...haven't decided where this system will go, probably Office or Front Room.

My point being: the system + environment together determine the experience, why not have several different options! =-)

Welcome to the thread, @jcflox . Your setups in each room are what I might end up doing. A central sound system? Nah... Not for me. Cheers, eh.

 

[DACattack]

Jason: Just wanted to mention that I received my SanDisk micro card to update the Bifrost 2 firmware yesterday and it was ridiculously simple and easy to do. Marvelous concept and execution. Well done.

 

[Ableza]

I stole a brand new ELAC Discovery player on eBay for $564. It was sealed and from a vendor that sells a bunch of electronics and evidently didn't much care what it was. I like it so far and need other endpoints. The Roon Essentials app will not stream to Chromecast Audio. Apparently it's a known and designed limitation. I would like something that is even more versatile as it's locked down to Tidal and won't stream to everything.

Roon Essentials is vry limited. I don't use it.

 

[DACattack]

Roon Essentials is vry limited. I don't use it.

I agree with @Ableza (unless Essentials meets every one of your needs now). Library limitations at minimum make it a non-starter for me. I've been a happy Roon user for 3 years. It has eliminated my library management headaches.

 

[bcowen]

Idle, coffee-drinking-on-a-Sunday morning (before the bread-pudding-comes-out-of-the-oven) question: on a scale of 1 to 5 (1 = the same ... 5 = if piped into a Modi Multibit, completely different), how would users compare the USB-Unison(tm) technology to the converting-USB-to-SPIDIF processing of my EITR?
Yep, it's an unfair comparison.
Nope, I don't expect consensus.

I don't have an answer -- I just have the same question. I'm currently EITR'ing into a Modi Multibit too, and assume the EITR would become unnecessary (maybe even a downgrade?) from straight USB into the Bifrost 2?

 

[Rensek]

I use modi 3 daily in a nearfield monitor and HP setup. It does just as well in 2ch as it does in HP use. It's no slouch, especially considering the price. It's a definite upgrade over most phone/tablet dacs, and those in older home electronics.

In my varied setups I find that I can easily distinguish voices, instrument position, separation, soundstage, etc. Depth is better done by modi multibit, but nothing is perfect. more people then not seem to like it, but it surely isn't for everyone. Nothing is.

 

[Zer0.p0int.Zer0]

I didn’t like Modi multibit in my 2 Ch setup as much as the original Bifrost MB, and now Yggy. It seemed to lose a little something. On my headphone setup it was really close to Bifrost MB.

 

[Rensek]

I didn’t like Modi multibit in my 2 Ch setup as much as the original Bifrost MB, and now Yggy. It seemed to lose a little something. On my headphone setup it was really close to Bifrost MB.

Well I would hope then when you buy expensive schiit, it sounds better then cheaper Schiit. I find it easier to tell the differences between dacs in 2ch as well.

As you move on up I think the better analog output stagesmake a difference. The original Bifrost I have seems to be my overall favorite of the three Schiit dacs I have. Its just well rounded, despite being and old d/s DAC. I think the discrete analogue stage is the differentiator. There are definitely parts to the modi multibit I prefer. Looking forward to moving up the multibit line as I go.

 

[earnmyturns]

NAIM Unity Atom (streamer, DAC, amp all-in-one. Class A/B amp, 40 wpc into 8 ohm. DAC is unknown, "a SHARC chip is all I could find about it

Here's one of naim's older DAC designs, and I believe they've kept the same design philosophy since: https://www.naimaudio.com/sites/default/files/products/downloads/files/naim_dac_august_2009.pdf. Schiit's higher-end multibit designs with a dedicated DSP filter seem closer to that than the Modi 3.

 

[earnmyturns]

on a scale of 1 to 5 (1 = the same ... 5 = if piped into a Modi Multibit, completely different), how would users compare the USB-Unison(tm) technology to the converting-USB-to-SPIDIF processing of my EITR?

I'd say 2-3 with Yggdrasil. I never compared them side-by-side, but I've heard both at different times.