Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Jan 1, 2015 at 5:11 PM Post #4,636 of 150,690
If you have an example of someone stating that their gear sounded worse after several hundred hours of burn-in please point me to it since I've never seen anyone say that.

As for the reason people upgrade, I don't think it has anything to do with something sounding worse because someone used it (provided they used it as designed), people often just want to try different gear in their quest for the "absolute sound". However, if you can point to examples of people upgrading because their gear's sound got worse through use (tube lifespans excepted), please do.

I have experienced situations just like that.
And it didn't take more than a few hours to arrive at that conclusion.
 
I tried a $5K silver power cable.
The bass from ≈ 100Hz on down just dried up and disappeared.
I have performed multiple experiments where there were no changes.
 
I didn't 'write them up' simply because there wasn't any improvement or in some cases any change at all.
So why bother?
 
 
But one distinction that I have not seen mentioned is between designers/engineers of our coveted gear and us as users.
These 2 groups perform very different 'tests', have very different expectations, use the gear very differently, and have very different environments within which we evaluate a DUT (Device Under Test).
 
To expect a designer/engineer to spend hundreds or thousands of hours using and listening to the same piece of gear and document its changes thru time is unrealistic, at best.  
But that is exactly what we as users do.
 
To expect a designer/engineer to have run his design with the same ancillary gear as is in our own setup, let alone in a typical 'home' as we users will, is also unrealistic.
 
And while some users might have extensive measurement capabilities, this is somewhat rare.  
So we users use the ubiquitous test and measurement systems available to us, namely our ears which are conditioned by our expectations which are again, unlike those in use by designers/engineers.
 
In short we as users decide if a component works well in our system(s) based upon our previous experience and from those whom we trust or have a congruent set of expectations as ours.
 
And as an aside. Another similar type of comparison is…
Where we would use a musician as a 'standard' or benchmark as to what is 'real’, which simply HAS to be different because what we as 'the audience' experience is by definition going to be a different experience from the musician.  
Much like the recorded sound of any instrument is going to be different than what the musician experiences.
 
A case in point is a friend of mine listened to my headphone system and said "This doesn't sound like what I heard while playing in the orchestra".   
Quite right!  
We hear what the audience is supposed to hear which is the sum total of the piece of music that is being projected towards the audience.
And not what the musicians themselves hear while playing.
And back to the main point here… 
 
And in a similar vein designers/engineers deal with the specifics of the operation of the circuit and then the challenges of manufacturing the design etc.
While we users are challenged with integrating this specific design into our existing setup.
This process of integrating runs the gamut of using different cables, or tubes, or acoustic treatments, or selling off that component because it simply doesn't work well in our system.
 
Which brings me to my last point.
Some of us can and do change gear like changing our wardrobe.  If it doesn't fit, we sell it off.
While others (myself for instance) will explore what can be done to see if our new electro-marvel will or can be made to fit.  
Or better yet to customize the fit to match our specific circumstances to suit our expectations all the more.
Sometimes this process can take many thousands of hours to experiment with, to try this and that, mostly based upon suggestions, or tweaks performed by others, and/or just our own past experiences.
 
All of this is not something designers/engineers have the time nor resources to explore.
 
That's what we (can) do as hobbyist’s, play around with stuff to dial in our system to meet our expectations, which are unique and often unrealized to begin with.
 
JJ  :thumb 
atsmile.gif

 
Jan 1, 2015 at 5:20 PM Post #4,637 of 150,690
^ I think you missed the tongue-in-cheek aspect of my post. You also entirely missed the serious points (e.g. "biased seletion mechamism") made. Never mind.

Btw, you didn't point out examples for your absolutist statements either.

This discussion is finished.

Yep, I missed the tongue and cheek part and you missed spell check before you posted. End of discussion.
 
Jan 1, 2015 at 5:32 PM Post #4,638 of 150,690
  Not bad.  Tyll did almost this with a couple pairs of AKG702's (I think). Ran one for weeks or months, set the other aside, ran his test suite on both, and listened.  He believed he uncovered very slight differences that point to burn in being a true phenomenon.  Or not.  It was not blind or double blind though still a pretty objective test.
 
<snip>
 
As one might expect from my just previous comment, I'm with Ableza on this one.  I *think* I've experienced burn in on a couple of pairs of headphones, most recently the Alpha Primes.  It could well be mental burn in, though I believe "burn in" or more likely mechanical run in is a reasonable phenomenon to expect from a headphone, as it is in great part a mechanical system with moving parts, flex, wear and tolerances, etc.  Or not….  It could easily all be mental burn in, and I have no data to support either on those couple of experiences.
 

 
I believe in "burn-in" via pad-softening.
 
On modded headphones with serious amounts of damping... actually there's an interesting phenomena there because those headphones tend to get stuffed with all sorts of witchery which can compact over time. How does this voodoo affect the hoodoo? *shrug*
 
 
 
  Also agreed.  I LOVE shiny things for sure!

 
Don't forget the blinky things! Blinky on top of shiny is exponentially better.
 
 
  Interesting thing, this burn-in -
 
  1. it always results in the amp/preamp/DAC sounding better
  2. it is always an even number of hours -- for example, 400 hours, not 374.5
  3. and if a dealer claims that a certain number of hours of burn-in are needed for a piece of equipment to sound its best, the time needed for a reasonable person to do the burn-in almost always exceeds the number of days that the dealer allows for returns...
 
That said, my newest laptop really came into its own after 200 hours of reading posts on head-fi...the colors popped, it surfs faster and I wept when I saw how it updates Excel calculations. Granted, I was supposed to be doing work and got fired, but it was worth it! 
tongue.gif

 
Burn-in makes things sound relatively better because your appreciation remains the same but the gear has devalued, meaning your enjoyment/value ratio vs time has increased.
 
I have pending studies on whether the slope of this curve can map out future upgrade paths when cross-referenced with a subject's savings plan and exposure levels to head-fi.
 
 

 
Jan 1, 2015 at 7:10 PM Post #4,640 of 150,690
  Yes, absolutely!  The more our equipment depreciates, the worse it sounds!  

Funny, for me it tends to be the inverse relationship… 
atsmile.gif

That is if there is any change at all.
 
JJ 
deadhorse.gif
 
 
Jan 1, 2015 at 9:33 PM Post #4,642 of 150,690
If you have an example of someone stating that their gear sounded worse after several hundred hours of burn-in please point me to it since I've never seen anyone say that.

As for the reason people upgrade, I don't think it has anything to do with something sounding worse because someone used it (provided they used it as designed), people often just want to try different gear in their quest for the "absolute sound". However, if you can point to examples of people upgrading because their gear's sound got worse through use (tube lifespans excepted), please do.


I must agree with the sentiment about reasons to upgrade. Never heard anyone say they are upgrading because their existing gear sounded progressively worse over time. This is, of course, only my personal experience and I can't speak for others. 
 
Jan 2, 2015 at 1:30 AM Post #4,643 of 150,690
   
-In that case they probably weren't measuring the right things.
 
I'll stand by my statement that competently designed amplifiers (operating into loads for which they are suitable; ie. do not use a relatively high output impedance OTL tube amp to drive a loudspeaker with 2 ohms impedance, to take it to extremes) all sound more or less the same IF (and this is an important if!) that is the stated design goal.
 

 
Well, it's clear we're not going to align on this one, so probably best to get back on topic. 
 
Jan 2, 2015 at 9:28 AM Post #4,644 of 150,690
  Not bad.  Tyll did almost this with a couple pairs of AKG702's (I think). Ran one for weeks or months, set the other aside, ran his test suite on both, and listened.  He believed he uncovered very slight differences that point to burn in being a true phenomenon.  Or not.  It was not blind or double blind though still a pretty objective test.
 
I generally stop reading posts once they hit comments along the lines of 100, 400, months of burn in.  Falls into the "whatever" category to me.  If you believe it, good for you.  Edit - this sounds a bit harsh.  I don't mean to sound like a dick (though I often do).  I just don't buy the hundreds of hours stories.  I've tried a couple of noted "hundreds of hours of burn in required" products in the past, and didn't really notice changes past the 5 to 20 hours of mental conditioning in any case.  And yes, subjective and vague.  It's been several years, and the further past age 50 I get, the shorter my memory gets….
 
As one might expect from my just previous comment, I'm with Ableza on this one.  I *think* I've experienced burn in on a couple of pairs of headphones, most recently the Alpha Primes.  It could well be mental burn in, though I believe "burn in" or more likely mechanical run in is a reasonable phenomenon to expect from a headphone, as it is in great part a mechanical system with moving parts, flex, wear and tolerances, etc.  Or not….  It could easily all be mental burn in, and I have no data to support either on those couple of experiences.
 
I disagree with the amp is an amp is an amp, ac is a dac is a dac logic.  In a perfectly designed state, yes.  Once physical reality sets in, different parts, designs, etc. will (should?) make a difference.  I think the differences have been measured, different levels of distortion, different harmonics prominence of distortion, other "stuff".
 
....
 
My qualifications - Mechanical engineer, decent ear, logical guy, analytical guy, blowhard who likes new, shiny things even if they don't sound any better.  Sometimes I like them well enough that I convince myself they sound better.  Sometimes they actually do sound better….

 
Tyl may have compared two samples of Q701 or K702, one "burned in", and one not burned in, but he may have heard nothing but sample to sample variation when he compared the two samples.
I suspect amplifier designers measure different things that we are not aware of.
One designer (I think it was the guy from BMC) mentioned that very few amps have gone anywhere near an EMC measurement lab.
One obvious thing is many manufacturers do not state IMD figures.
Simaudio and Arcam appear to use EMC testing but they are not very forthcoming with detail.
Arcam waters it down with marketing something called the "mask of silence".
 
My qualifications - Electrical Engineer, decent ear, logical guy, analytical guy, blowhard who likes new, shiny things even if they don't sound any better.  Sometimes I like them well enough that I convince myself they sound better.  Sometimes they actually do sound better….
 
Like virtually everyone else on this thread, I don't actually design audio equipment for a living, so like most of us, I'm not really an expert.
The closest I ever got was designing Analog Signal Processing gear for an Australian Navy contract.
 
   
-Depends. (There are lots of (valid; don't get me wrong - I am as guilty as the next guy!) reasons to upgrade one's kit beside sound quality alone..)

 
I was actually being sarcastic.
I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle, very good amps may sound virtually identical, or slightly different.
Depends on which two amps you are comparing.
And the differences are often subtle.
 
Jason alludes to all this in this thread.
But he never seems to give the game away, often talking about measuring things, but he typically doesn't give away what they are actually measuring!
 
Jan 2, 2015 at 10:57 AM Post #4,647 of 150,690
  Pay way too much back to Uncle Sam...I may need to somehow claim you and others on this board as dependents on my taxes this year...huge bill coming...

Does that mean we get to share in your estate, once you unplug your headphones for the last time?
 
Jan 2, 2015 at 11:11 AM Post #4,648 of 150,690
http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/4635#post_11179799
 
All good points JJ.  
 
And, while I don't subscribe to the burn-in theory, if true believers shared both their good and bad experiences, it may help convert non-believers or at least make us a bit more open minded to the idea that burn-in may exist since, in your experience, it doesn't always result in a product sounding better.  
 
I am also open to the idea that maybe things just work differently over in West Seattle than they do in Phinney Ridge...
wink.gif

 
Chris
 
Jan 2, 2015 at 11:19 AM Post #4,650 of 150,690
  Yes, it is a nice problem to have...on the flip side, my job was eliminated, so the bill for 2015 may be lots smaller!


Ouch! Sorry to hear that.
 
Having run my own businesses for the last 21 years, I'm familiar with "widely varying income." Makes home loan qualification interesting, to put it politely.
 
Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
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