[Pandahead]

Not sure if this is the right spot for this, but what the heck ...
I came across an interesting glitch in the Freya documentation while exchanging emails with Schiit about socket savers and tube rolling. I asked if they thought if rolling tubes for the Cathode followers made a true difference. (My experiments showed they didn't to my ears.) In the course of the discussion Tom from Schiit said to leave the left pair, the Cathode followers, alone. That got my attention, because my manual says the REAR pair are the Cathode Followers and the Front pair are the Gain Stage. Tom checked with Jason who said the online manual which says the LEFT pair are the Cathode Followers and the Right Pair are the Gain Stage.

I had been rolling only the FRONT pair thinking that the Gain Stage made the true difference. Now I understand a little bit why the amp never quite seemed as ... cogent as it should sound.

While the tubes that came with the Freya were all the same, I think only the gain stage pair need to be balanced and the cathode follower pain need t be balance, but you don't need the quad to be balance

So, I wonder if anyone else followed the printed manual vs the online manual or does everyone use only matched quads for this amp?

Experiment and see. I have found that the quality of the gain stage is reinforced by the same type tubes as followers. If you have what you feel is a reasonably neutral pair as followers you can purchase pairs of different tubes to try in the gain stage. Since the better NOS tubes can be pretty expensive you can start with a pair this way. If they are what you're looking for then try using 4 of them. Sometimes you can combine, use a different pair you like and temper the gain stage. Enjoy experimenting, that's about all you can do. But, I have found the best sound is with a quad.

 

[jeffrt]

Thanks, Pandahead.

I have ordered a couple of pairs of balanced/matched tubes to go along with the ones I already have to test this theory - using the same tubes in both positions. They include new Tung-Sols, NOS Sylvania 6SN7GTBs from 1950s (which I like in the Freya) and a set of cryo'd new Tung-Sols (I like the theory behind cryogenic treatment of tubes; I should be able to compare them to the untreated same tube to see if and how much difference there is..)

As for 5692 Red Base tubes and Ken-Rads, I'm afraid I'm very averse to spending such a high proportion of the unit's original cost on a set of tubes.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

[Mondo Caliente]

The clean matched pair NOS Sylvania "chrome domes" I found weren't expensive and have been a seriously great sounding thing with the new version Tung Sols in the "2nd" stage. Now I have enough 6SN7GTBs to last for years…still…RCAs? I might have to...

 

[jeffrt]

The clean matched pair NOS Sylvania "chrome domes" I found weren't expensive and have been a seriously great sounding thing with the new version Tung Sols in the "2nd" stage. Now I have enough 6SN7GTBs to last for years…still…RCAs? I might have to...

I agree on the Sylvania GTBs (got mine unused/NOS from a nice guy on Ebay [imagine that]; they're from 1958.). Right now they're in both positions. I have a quad of new production Tung-Sols coming, based on what I have read hear + the fact they were relatively inexpensive (compared to Red Base 5692a and many VT-231).

 

[LouS]

Thanks, Pandahead.

I have ordered a couple of pairs of balanced/matched tubes to go along with the ones I already have to test this theory - using the same tubes in both positions. They include new Tung-Sols, NOS Sylvania 6SN7GTBs from 1950s (which I like in the Freya) and a set of cryo'd new Tung-Sols (I like the theory behind cryogenic treatment of tubes; I should be able to compare them to the untreated same tube to see if and how much difference there is..)

As for 5692 Red Base tubes and Ken-Rads, I'm afraid I'm very averse to spending such a high proportion of the unit's original cost on a set of tubes.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Ken Rads don't image, a quad would be a big waste, if you are careful you can get a decent pair for a decent price, but be sure they have been tested for microphonics, they are notoriously microphonic. What they do add is dead on tone, violins, pianos, etc., sound right, but you'll need Raytheons, or Treasure II's, etc., to get good imaging.

 

[jeffrt]

I'm not sure why $$$ are being dropped for tubes like Shuguangs and new issue tung sols. Normal 6SN7 tube rolling applies here. Head over to the 6SN7 thread. There are some very good value NOS tubes that can be had for cheap and are easily better than new issues. Tubes like Hytron 6SN7GT, Tung Sol Mouse Ears, Sylvania 6SN7WGT, RCA VT-231, Ken-Rad VT-231, depending on the kind of sound you want, and the headphones/speakers you'll be using. All very good tubes and most of them can be had between $50-$100. Yes you need to spend some time to find reliable/dealers and sellers and hunt some deals down. You can only buy the driver tubes and not the trailing ones, as the trailing tubes will have limited effect on sound. The new issues are not as good as the NOS tubes. I think one of the few new issue tubes that are regarded well are the CV181Z by Shuguang Treasure, but Im not sure they run/fit the Freya.

Funny how one year can change EVERYTHING! The above was posted in Feb. 2017.

I just looked on Ebay for Hytron 6SN7GT and it's no longer $50-100, but $300 for a pair.
I looked for Ken-Rad VT-231 and it's no longer $100, but $500 for a pair.

 

[LouS]

Funny how one year can change EVERYTHING! The above was posted in Feb. 2017.

I just looked on Ebay for Hytron 6SN7GT and it's no longer $50-100, but $300 for a pair.
I looked for Ken-Rad VT-231 and it's no longer $100, but $500 for a pair.

He suggested you check here, ePay is virtually always expensive though I have found some decent buys, but you have to dig and be patient to do so. One "trick" is to find single tubes that test as NOS. The crazy pairs for hundreds of dollars are usually just there, they don't seem to sell often, those I don't allow to bother or deter me, good sellers also know that the absurd price tubes don't sell, so you can still find sane prices if you have the time to invest. For those who's time is far more valuable, there are $500 pairs.

 

[jeffrt]

He suggested you check here, ePay is virtually always expensive though I have found some decent buys, but you have to dig and be patient to do so. One "trick" is to find single tubes that test as NOS. The crazy pairs for hundreds of dollars are usually just there, they don't seem to sell often, those I don't allow to bother or deter me, good sellers also know that the absurd price tubes don't sell, so you can still find sane prices if you have the time to invest. For those who's time is far more valuable, there are $500 pairs.

I too have found deals thru regular dealers like tubedepot.com and tctubes.com and tubemonger.com and,believe it or not thru Ebay. My only point was that over a year, "potential" prices for some of the more wanted (not necessarily desirable) tubes have skyrocketed. More than a few people have recommended Red Base and VT-231s and the like, but having to search for weeks or months for decent matched NOS tubes at a rational price does not seem worth the blood, sweat, tears and aggravation. There are some excellent, tubes available at reasonable prices with 75-95% of the performance of many of these insanely priced NOS tubes.

 

[Alveric]

I too have found deals thru regular dealers like tubedepot.com and tctubes.com and tubemonger.com and,believe it or not thru Ebay. My only point was that over a year, "potential" prices for some of the more wanted (not necessarily desirable) tubes have skyrocketed. More than a few people have recommended Red Base and VT-231s and the like, but having to search for weeks or months for decent matched NOS tubes at a rational price does not seem worth the blood, sweat, tears and aggravation. There are some excellent, tubes available at reasonable prices with 75-95% of the performance of many of these insanely priced NOS tubes.

I have given up on tubes off ebay. Bought a pair of red base RCAs for $180 and they flat out are the worst tubes I ever bought. Spitting DC and noise, a real threat to my amp and speakers. I was like 5 days past the so-called warranty and so they refused shipment back to even retest them. Since ebay supports sellers not buyers, I boycotted for over a year. Stick to reputable sellers and make sure you have time to fully test them.

 

[jeffrt]

I have given up on tubes off ebay. Bought a pair of red base RCAs for $180 and they flat out are the worst tubes I ever bought. Spitting DC and noise, a real threat to my amp and speakers. I was like 5 days past the so-called warranty and so they refused shipment back to even retest them. Since ebay supports sellers not buyers, I boycotted for over a year. Stick to reputable sellers and make sure you have time to fully test them.

I understand why you did that. Condolences on such a large loss without recompense.
I have been luckier in that regard. So I'll continue to look at EBay and try to buy as intelligently as I can, from sellers with good records. That said, for the most part, I do buy from good internet sellers with their own web sites.

 

[DrJam]

I understand why you did that. Condolences on such a large loss without recompense.
I have been luckier in that regard. So I'll continue to look at EBay and try to buy as intelligently as I can, from sellers with good records. That said, for the most part, I do buy from good internet sellers with their own web sites.

After spending a lot of time doing ebay research, I bought tubes from two different sellers. In the first set that arrived one of the tubes was dead. Aww schiit, here we go... I sent the seller an email and got a response in about 12 seconds. Seller was very apologetic; said the tubes tested fine, but didn't doubt my claims and wanted to make it right. After a short email conversation, I returned the tubes in exchange for a pair of RCA GTB's that I like a lot.

The point is that problems happen, but how those problems are addressed is what is important and in this case the seller was fantastic. In fact, I've bought another set from that seller (and several from the other seller) as well. I don't have any of the "reference set" like @winders has, but I have a pretty good collection of Raytheon, GE, RCA and Sylvania that I'm happy with.

 

[LouS]

After spending a lot of time doing ebay research, I bought tubes from two different sellers. In the first set that arrived one of the tubes was dead. Aww schiit, here we go... I sent the seller an email and got a response in about 12 seconds. Seller was very apologetic; said the tubes tested fine, but didn't doubt my claims and wanted to make it right. After a short email conversation, I returned the tubes in exchange for a pair of RCA GTB's that I like a lot.

The point is that problems happen, but how those problems are addressed is what is important and in this case the seller was fantastic. In fact, I've bought another set from that seller (and several from the other seller) as well. I don't have any of the "reference set" like @winders has, but I have a pretty good collection of Raytheon, GE, RCA and Sylvania that I'm happy with.

I bought some tubes from Winders, let me tell you, they all tested fine, but one died after a few hours of play. So his reference tubes are as susceptible to dying as anyone's. I never mentioned it because it was everything he represented it to be, tested NOS, it was great, it wasn't his fault it failed, these tubes just are what they are, production was not what it is today, so you can pay $500 for a tube, have it test perfect, but then it fails after a few hours. It absolutely sucks, but it's unfortunately part of the game. If I wanted to try to run a company, you can have these old tubes tested and find out exactly how they were made. Their are no rights to this old technology so the only thing holding anyone back from making them on modern nearly 100% repeatable machines in insane numbers an hour is desire. I can't imagine that the audio and guitar communities wouldn't poor money into a go fund me, or some such fund in order to get a nearly limitless supply of exact replicas for a fraction of the current costs. I don't understand why the existing manufacturers aren't doing it unless they don't use modern machines. Robots and PLCS could turn out hundreds an hour, and can be programmed to make as many different tubes as you want to program them to make. The real challenge may be in replicating the metals used exactly. Small runs of specialty metals are expensive, but on a per tube basis it shouldn't add that much to the price.

 

[DrJam]

I bought some tubes from Winders, let me tell you, they all tested fine, but one died after a few hours of play. So his reference tubes are as susceptible to dying as anyone's. I never mentioned it because it was everything he represented it to be, tested NOS, it was great, it wasn't his fault it failed, these tubes just are what they are, production was not what it is today, so you can pay $500 for a tube, have it test perfect, but then it fails after a few hours. It absolutely sucks, but it's unfortunately part of the game. If I wanted to try to run a company, you can have these old tubes tested and find out exactly how they were made. Their are no rights to this old technology so the only thing holding anyone back from making them on modern nearly 100% repeatable machines in insane numbers an hour is desire. I can't imagine that the audio and guitar communities wouldn't poor money into a go fund me, or some such fund in order to get a nearly limitless supply of exact replicas for a fraction of the current costs. I don't understand why the existing manufacturers aren't doing it unless they don't use modern machines. Robots and PLCS could turn out hundreds an hour, and can be programmed to make as many different tubes as you want to program them to make. The real challenge may be in replicating the metals used exactly. Small runs of specialty metals are expensive, but on a per tube basis it shouldn't add that much to the price.

And I suppose fear of that experience is why I'm ok with pairs in the $30-50 range but not so much the ones that go for $150-200+. After all, these were made ~50-70 years ago!
The 5 pairs I have all sound better than the stock 6H8C. Currently I don't have a good setup room wise, and I'm guessing that to be able to really appreciate some of these "holy grail" tubes I would need a much better listening space.

 

[LouS]

And I suppose fear of that experience is why I'm ok with pairs in the $30-50 range but not so much the ones that go for $150-200+. After all, these were made ~50-70 years ago!
The 5 pairs I have all sound better than the stock 6H8C. Currently I don't have a good setup room wise, and I'm guessing that to be able to really appreciate some of these "holy grail" tubes I would need a much better listening space.

Well, Winders didn't charge that much, it likely was a 50-100 dollar tube, I don't recall the exact price. Furthermore, if you can hear the differences between stock tubes and better ones, surely you would also hear the differences between the better tubes and higher end tubes. The big problem for me is that the very best sounding set up that I have found is a combination of Ken Rads and the Raytheons that have a T looking structure in the wiring in the bottom of the tube. The Ken Rads have a strong tendency for being microphonic. Herbie's tube dampers help, but don't cure the problem, so you either need to use box speakers and keep the preamp behind them, or perhaps make a U shaped foam contraption to protect the back and sides of the preamp from dipole speaker's sound waves. That said, I suppose one must decide for one's self if one is a big enough of a hedonist to expend the requisite resources to audio heaven, so to speak, or not. It's a lot of money for a hobby, especially considering that the reliability isn't very impressive, but as far as sound goes, you would hear the differences, but it may not be worth it to you. I frequently listen to mine in passive mode with the tubes out of it, I save the tubes for serious listening.

 

[Tennessee]

Got a question - is there much sense in adding freya to a good powered amp? I can turn off volume control on it. And would like to hear those tubes... ^^