[brad1138]

I have (among others ) a set of 4 Tung-Sol NP and a set of 4 Tung-sol NOS. I have been running 1 pair of the NP in the buffer, and rolling the gain stage through about 1/2 dozen various tubes. I tired the NOS in the gain stage, and they worked well. With Ken Rad Staggered plates in the gain(not necessarily relevant), I thought I would try the NOS in the buffer stage. The hum was horrible, very loud. Enough to hear from the sitting position. I went back to the NP in the buffer, and the noise was all but gone (back to normal for tubes).

It just seemed odd, does that really make any sense? Why would they create so much noise in the buffer stage, but not the gain?

 

[LouS]

Now that Freya's are beginning to come into possession of more/many(?) of us "Schiit-O-Philes"...

Of those of you who have owned or at least heard both and Freya and Ragnarok, (as a pre-amp), in your audio systems, would you please compare/contrast the sound qualities of both Freya and Ragnarok...?...frequency curve/timbre, image size/breadth/depth, image specificity, etc...as I currently use my "Rag" as my stereo system pre-amp, but am VERY curious/interested in the Freya as a dedicated pre-amp, so as to not have to power-up another amplifier within my pre-amp, (60 watts/channel...), when I am listen to my speakers, (driven by an Aragon 4004 amp)...

Speaking of which, I DO wonder how Vidar would compare to my venerable Aragon...(200 watts /channel dual mono-block design, driving a pair of Lipinski Sound 707 monitors rated at 4 Ohms...)...

Oh, and again, I wonder if some sort of a circuit/switch(?) could be designed/installed into the Freya so that one could use it as a pre-amp in either the passive or solid-state active mode of operation, without having the tube section under power, thus saving tube life AND some energy/heat generation...?...

Anyone out there with a solution?...(other than to remove the tubes every time...lol...)

If Freya had a circuit/option that would do the above, I would purchase it in a New York City gnat's heartbeat!...(even faster than a New York Minute... ...)

Edited by Synergist969 - Today at 8:07 am View History

Hi Synergist969,

As for the Vidars vs Aragon, if you have had no mods made and run a pair of Vidars, they should wipe the floor with your Aragon. Mind you that I am generalizing, a few designers were aware of diode's ringing issues and used the proper capacitors in parallel to the rectifiers in order to quite the diodes, but it wasn't common practice. So these days they generally use Hexfred or other so called soft recovery diodes which don't ring. That itself will clean up any low level noise which will give you a "darker" background increasing the detail that you'll be able to hear. Virtually all of the components made these days are made to much higher standards as so many will be used at frequencies not previously used in non military or medical applications, so unless your amp has had extensive modifications, a pair of Vidars ought to sound much better, but to be safe, I'd try as single Vidar first and hold onto the Aragon at least until the trial period is over, just in case of disappointment.

I have an extremely modified Stasis amp, only the transistors in the driver stages and the transformer are original. As impressive as it is, and it is an awesome amplifier, I have considered trying a Vidar, and may at some point, though I do doubt that they can really replace it. Threshold, Levenson, Krell, and the like are pretty hard to top, and if I had Spectral gear I don't think that I would even consider a Vidar. Aragon like the venerable PS Audio 200CX is a pretty awesome amplifier, but unless you can do your own mods, it just wouldn't make economic sense to upgrade it, IMHO. Upgraded it would likely be the equal, and it could even better the Vidars, it's one of those iconic legends of it's time, and can hold it's own against a lot of newer amps as is.

 

[ZAXX40]

I have (among others ) a set of 4 Tung-Sol NP and a set of 4 Tung-sol NOS. I have been running 1 pair of the NP in the buffer, and rolling the gain stage through about 1/2 dozen various tubes. I tired the NOS in the gain stage, and they worked well. With Ken Rad Staggered plates in the gain(not necessarily relevant), I thought I would try the NOS in the buffer stage. The hum was horrible, very loud. Enough to hear from the sitting position. I went back to the NP in the buffer, and the noise was all but gone (back to normal for tubes).

It just seemed odd, does that really make any sense? Why would they create so much noise in the buffer stage, but not the gain?

Great question I would love to know the answer too. I am a newbie top tubes so I am trying to learn. My Freya is silent even in tube gain mode with the 4 factory tubes.

I purchased 4 matched Northern Electric tubes. I replaced 2 of the stock tubes in the right side gain stage and my system was still silent. I installed the other 2
Northern Electric tubes in the left output stage. Noise was now present on both speakers. Are these output tubes bad? Historically does rolling tubes in the output stage make for improved sound with good tubes or are we only concerned with rolling tubes in the gain stage?

 

[LouS]

This is arguably off topic except that the Freya is all about tubes, so it is also arguable that this is inherently relevant.

New Sensor tubes and grid leakage. I just had to go through PayPal and the BBB to get a refund from Uptown Audio for some new Tong-sol tubes which read bad on my Sencore tube tester. I have heard that new tubes don't hold up as well as NOS tubes, perhaps their tubes having grid leakage issues right out of the box has something to do with that. They have even publicly addressed this;

http://www.tungsol.com/tungsol/html/faqs3.html

"Question:

What is grid leakage?

Answer:

Grid leak is the small current through the grid of a vacuum tube into the circuit feeding the grid. It is an inherent operating characteristic of triodes and other multi-grid vacuum tubes. This current is caused by the small negative voltage present in all vacuum tubes as a result of a space charge within the envelope of the tube. This space charge is part of the thermionic effect, which is the fundamental phenomenon behind all vacuum tubes.

Grid leakage is also a term that is frequently incorrectly used to describe the condition of a tube when tested on a tube tester. The correct term is inter-electrode leakage, which refers to leakage paths between the elements of a tube. Many emission type tube testers have leakage tests that far exceed the application of the tube being tested and will reject many perfectly functional tubes. Sencore sold tube testers in the 1960s that were claimed to have the "most sensitive leakage test in the industry"."

I also have read that early Treasure tubes had major issues, but all indications are that Shuguang has corrected this. No old tube technology is currently proprietary, so I just don't understand why these companies are not effectively making the old tubes rather than making tubes that out of the box cannot pass basic tests that older tubes do, I have not had even 1 6SN7 other than current production Tong-sols fail this test....

As for the Herbie's UltraSonic Rx Dampners, I am not at all sure that these do much at all, though to be fair I am juggling a multitude of new things in my system just now so consider this what it is, a poorly vetted initial impression. I have a lot more of Herbie's vibration products en route, I have always been a vibration skeptic, so if I come back and rave about his materials it won't be due to the placebo effect because I am not a believer. That said, if you have bad tubes, vibration is an issue, and treating the symptoms rather than getting a good set of tubes, which is not necessarily easy to do, has nothing to do with properly operating gear, which is what I care about.

 

[hornytoad]

This is arguably off topic except that the Freya is all about tubes, so it is also arguable that this is inherently relevant.

New Sensor tubes and grid leakage. I just had to go through PayPal and the BBB to get a refund from Uptown Audio for some new Tong-sol tubes which read bad on my Sencore tube tester. I have heard that new tubes don't hold up as well as NOS tubes, perhaps their tubes having grid leakage issues right out of the box has something to do with that. They have even publicly addressed this;

http://www.tungsol.com/tungsol/html/faqs3.html

"Question:

What is grid leakage?

Answer:

Grid leak is the small current through the grid of a vacuum tube into the circuit feeding the grid. It is an inherent operating characteristic of triodes and other multi-grid vacuum tubes. This current is caused by the small negative voltage present in all vacuum tubes as a result of a space charge within the envelope of the tube. This space charge is part of the thermionic effect, which is the fundamental phenomenon behind all vacuum tubes.

Grid leakage is also a term that is frequently incorrectly used to describe the condition of a tube when tested on a tube tester. The correct term is inter-electrode leakage, which refers to leakage paths between the elements of a tube. Many emission type tube testers have leakage tests that far exceed the application of the tube being tested and will reject many perfectly functional tubes. Sencore sold tube testers in the 1960s that were claimed to have the "most sensitive leakage test in the industry"."

I also have read that early Treasure tubes had major issues, but all indications are that Shuguang has corrected this. No old tube technology is currently proprietary, so I just don't understand why these companies are not effectively making the old tubes rather than making tubes that out of the box cannot pass basic tests that older tubes do, I have not had even 1 6SN7 other than current production Tong-sols fail this test....

As for the Herbie's UltraSonic Rx Dampners, I am not at all sure that these do much at all, though to be fair I am juggling a multitude of new things in my system just now so consider this what it is, a poorly vetted initial impression. I have a lot more of Herbie's vibration products en route, I have always been a vibration skeptic, so if I come back and rave about his materials it won't be due to the placebo effect because I am not a believer. That said, if you have bad tubes, vibration is an issue, and treating the symptoms rather than getting a good set of tubes, which is not necessarily easy to do, has nothing to do with properly operating gear, which is what I care about.

Hi Lou , the grid leakage issue is very interesting and I am glad you brought it up .
I have two Treasure tubes that occasionally have a buzzing sound . Herbies tube dampers did tame the buzzing so I’m happy . I could literally hear the buzzing noise from the listening position on quiet music .
But yes the tubes themselves are likely the real issue .

 

[LouS]

Hi Lou , the grid leakage issue is very interesting and I am glad you brought it up .
I have two Treasure tubes that occasionally have a buzzing sound . Herbies tube dampers did tame the buzzing so I’m happy . I could literally hear the buzzing noise from the listening position on quiet music .
But yes the tubes themselves are likely the real issue .

That's crazy, new tubes being bad out of the box. I wish I had the money to manufacture tubes. With PLCs and robotics you should be able to replicate old tubes perfectly and manufacturer them en mass in no time. They ought to be easily sellable for $25 or less at a good profit.

 

[buke9]

That's crazy, new tubes being bad out of the box. I wish I had the money to manufacture tubes. With PLCs and robotics you should be able to replicate old tubes perfectly and manufacturer them en mass in no time. They ought to be easily sellable for $25 or less at a good profit.

Not sure I agree with replicating the tubes as a lot of the metals then were used for the first time other than having some of the last run thrown in. Who’s to know how that effects things and also we have better filters on the gas side than they did just a few decades ago . Just like building a Stradivarius likely can’t be replicated as the wood is so much different now with environmental changes and what is in the air now as opposed to then. Also the manufactured things quite a bit different then and for a good reason as a lot of it very bad for people and the environment but all of those metals and coatings and other things involved were made so much diffent back then so who is to know.

 

[LouS]

Not sure I agree with replicating the tubes as a lot of the metals then were used for the first time other than having some of the last run thrown in. Who’s to know how that effects things and also we have better filters on the gas side than they did just a few decades ago . Just like building a Stradivarius likely can’t be replicated as the wood is so much different now with environmental changes and what is in the air now as opposed to then. Also the manufactured things quite a bit different then and for a good reason as a lot of it very bad for people and the environment but all of those metals and coatings and other things involved were made so much diffent back then so who is to know.

There is a device that uses an electric arc to burn materials, it then examines the light put off, and then tells you everything in it based upon the light spectrum, as well as percentages. Strats are Strats due to the mini ice age, it could be replicated with sufficient funds, take full grown but very young trees, transplant them where temps match the temps the maple trees Stradivarius used were faced with. It would be EXTREMELY expensive, but it's doable since we know it was about the density of the wood. Given the proper technology all things physical can be replicated. The gas in the tubes can be tested as well, we have devices to measure gasses which are calibrated to standards and are trustworthy. It just takes money and initiative. If such horrid chemicals were used they likely would have pulled those tubes off the market decades ago and you could only get them.on the black market.

 

[sam6550a]

I have (among others ) a set of 4 Tung-Sol NP and a set of 4 Tung-sol NOS. I have been running 1 pair of the NP in the buffer, and rolling the gain stage through about 1/2 dozen various tubes. I tired the NOS in the gain stage, and they worked well. With Ken Rad Staggered plates in the gain(not necessarily relevant), I thought I would try the NOS in the buffer stage. The hum was horrible, very loud. Enough to hear from the sitting position. I went back to the NP in the buffer, and the noise was all but gone (back to normal for tubes).

It just seemed odd, does that really make any sense? Why would they create so much noise in the buffer stage, but not the gain?

In Freya, the voltage amplifier stage is direct [DC] coupled to the cathode follower, necessitating biasing of the tube filaments at some DC voltage so as to not exceed the maximum heater-cathode voltage differential of the 6SN7, which I believe is about 100V. If the tube has heater-cathode leakage, you modulate the electron stream with power line frequency voltage, hence the buzz. In applications where there is not a large cathode resistor, the leakage is not noticeable.

 

[sam6550a]

That's crazy, new tubes being bad out of the box. I wish I had the money to manufacture tubes. With PLCs and robotics you should be able to replicate old tubes perfectly and manufacturer them en mass in no time. They ought to be easily sellable for $25 or less at a good profit.

When vacuum tubes were mass manufactured, a LOT of manual labor was involved in winding filaments, placing filaments inside cathode tubes, assembling copper rods and mica spacers, etc. Most of this was done by craftsmen [or more accurately, craftswomen] who were meticulous. Because of this "human touch", some tubes sound better than others. The recipe depended on the chef, not the grocer providing the materials.

 

[LouS]

When vacuum tubes were mass manufactured, a LOT of manual labor was involved in winding filaments, placing filaments inside cathode tubes, assembling copper rods and mica spacers, etc. Most of this was done by craftsmen [or more accurately, craftswomen] who were meticulous. Because of this "human touch", some tubes sound better than others. The recipe depended on the chef, not the grocer providing the materials.

Which is why we can make them so inexpensively now. Copy the best of the best, and that's what the machines will virtually always make. Obviously the machines will fail occasionally, but I am talking about the rule, not the exception. Virtually anything can be reverse engineered, and beyond that there should be a lab where testing is done to try slight variations in an attempt to ever improve the product. Other than the lab, the factory could very possibly be a lights out factory.

 

[sam6550a]

Which is why we can make them so inexpensively now. Copy the best of the best, and that's what the machines will virtually always make. Obviously the machines will fail occasionally, but I am talking about the rule, not the exception. Virtually anything can be reverse engineered, and beyond that there should be a lab where testing is done to try slight variations in an attempt to ever improve the product. Other than the lab, the factory could very possibly be a lights out factory.

Sounds good on paper, but no current "new" 6SN7 tubes sound as good as NOS Red Base or Bad Boys.

 

[LouS]

Sounds good on paper, but no current "new" 6SN7 tubes sound as good as NOS Red Base or Bad Boys.

Which is exactly why I said;

"That's crazy, new tubes being bad out of the box. I wish I had the money to manufacture tubes. With PLCs and robotics you should be able to replicate old tubes perfectly and manufacturer them en mass in no time. They ought to be easily sellable for $25 or less at a good profit."

 

[sam6550a]

Which is exactly why I said;

"That's crazy, new tubes being bad out of the box. I wish I had the money to manufacture tubes. With PLCs and robotics you should be able to replicate old tubes perfectly and manufacturer them en mass in no time. They ought to be easily sellable for $25 or less at a good profit."

I guess that the recipe died with the chef, since no one has been able to do it, even with retail prices that make grown men cry.

 

[LouS]

I guess that the recipe died with the chef, since no one has been able to do it, even with retail prices that make grown men cry.

It's probably more about people accepting mediocrity. If we refused to buy their crap THEN they would act, but as long as their pockets are doing well selling crap, why work, sit back and enjoy. Craftsmanship and pride in product is dead.