[disastermouse]

   
The Teac UD501 is famous for how extensively it is engineered - and how bad it sounds.   It's a classic example of how buzzwords and technical specs do not have much to do with sound quality.
 
I compared extensively the Teac UD501 with the Schiit Bifrost Uber (delta-sigma) DAC and the Bifrost Uber is significantly better.  (And the Bifrost Multibit has significant improvements, in my opinion, over the Bifrost Uber).
 
That is in my opinion with my equipment.  A reviewer states about the Teac UD501 (I'll leave him anonymous because he would not want to be involved in the discussion):
 
 
That is pretty much what I heard as well.
 
I'd rather have an HRT MusicStreamer II DAC ($150) in my system than a Teac.

Is the MusicStreamer ii a bad DAC? I'm currently running an MSii+. I plan on upgrading to a Bimby or Gimby as soon as I can afford it.

 

[aamer23]

Sorry people, I am not zombied by Shiit prodicts, I listen to a lot of dac. But you are the reason, this tread is not usefull for me. It doesn t respond the question I have. Most of tread are the hymn to Shiitt, as we speak not about the one of budget dac but something as of the best dac in the world. Bye bye

sorry mate i have heard some of the best DAC's on the planet Accuphase, Naim, Linn, Rega, DCS, Teac, Arcam, Antelope Audio, PS Audio  and Auralic just to name a few, price vs performance for me was Bifrost MB it is very tuneful and musical and so if i like the product and find the makers good people why would you want to move oh yes and they make upgrades available keeping my product up to date and less 700 usd what else is required ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? why am wrong to want to support schiit with my custom ????????????????????????????????????

 

[kstuart]

 

   
The Teac UD501 is famous for how extensively it is engineered - and how bad it sounds.   It's a classic example of how buzzwords and technical specs do not have much to do with sound quality.
 
I compared extensively the Teac UD501 with the Schiit Bifrost Uber (delta-sigma) DAC and the Bifrost Uber is significantly better.  (And the Bifrost Multibit has significant improvements, in my opinion, over the Bifrost Uber).
 
That is in my opinion with my equipment.  A reviewer states about the Teac UD501 (I'll leave him anonymous because he would not want to be involved in the discussion):
 
 
That is pretty much what I heard as well.
 
I'd rather have an HRT MusicStreamer II DAC ($150) in my system than a Teac.

Is the MusicStreamer ii a bad DAC? I'm currently running an MSii+. I plan on upgrading to a Bimby or Gimby as soon as I can afford it.

No - just the opposite - that was the first DAC I heard which sounded "analog", and led me to believe that the problem with digital audio was in the DACs.   I upgraded to the MS Two Plus which I still use in my "late night" setup with Schiit Vali amp and MrSpeakers Mad Dog Pro closed headphones (sadly MrSpeakers has transitioned to high end headphones).
 
I did find the Bifrost Uber to be an improvement over the Two Plus and the Multibit to be an improvement over the Uber.
 
But the point was that - despite being something like $700 - the Teac has some disagreeable qualities that are NOT found in the MS Two at $150.

 

[disastermouse]

No - just the opposite - that was the first DAC I heard which sounded "analog", and led me to believe that the problem with digital audio was in the DACs.   I upgraded to the MS Two Plus which I still use in my "late night" setup with Schiit Vali amp and MrSpeakers Mad Dog Pro closed headphones (sadly MrSpeakers has transitioned to high end headphones).

I did find the Bifrost Uber to be an improvement over the Two Plus and the Multibit to be an improvement over the Uber.

But the point was that - despite being something like $700 - the Teac has some disagreeable qualities that are NOT found in the MS Two at $150.

I went right from an FiiO E7 to the MSii+. What was the difference between II and ii+?

 

[kstuart]

 

No - just the opposite - that was the first DAC I heard which sounded "analog", and led me to believe that the problem with digital audio was in the DACs.   I upgraded to the MS Two Plus which I still use in my "late night" setup with Schiit Vali amp and MrSpeakers Mad Dog Pro closed headphones (sadly MrSpeakers has transitioned to high end headphones).

I did find the Bifrost Uber to be an improvement over the Two Plus and the Multibit to be an improvement over the Uber.

But the point was that - despite being something like $700 - the Teac has some disagreeable qualities that are NOT found in the MS Two at $150.

I went right from an FiiO E7 to the MSii+. What was the difference between II and ii+?

From my memory - more refined, more detail.  The MS Two is great for avoiding a lot of the "cold hard" digital sound - it's drawbacks are mostly in terms of "omission", i.e. things not done, details not presented or smoothed over.  The Plus thus has more of that detail and refinement.

 

[disastermouse]

 
From my memory - more refined, more detail.  The MS Two is great for avoiding a lot of the "cold hard" digital sound - it's drawbacks are mostly in terms of "omission", i.e. things not done, details not presented or smoothed over.  The Plus thus has more of that detail and refinement.

Think the MSii+ will play well with the Magni 2 Uber? It works pretty well with the original Magni.

 

[kstuart]

 

 
From my memory - more refined, more detail.  The MS Two is great for avoiding a lot of the "cold hard" digital sound - it's drawbacks are mostly in terms of "omission", i.e. things not done, details not presented or smoothed over.  The Plus thus has more of that detail and refinement.

Think the MSii+ will play well with the Magni 2 Uber? It works pretty well with the original Magni.

I do not know anything about the Magni 2 Uber - perhaps someone else can answer.

 

[Collot]

Well, there is no question that Oleg's words have been harsh, not to mention that his limited mastery of the english language has made it hard to understand some of his points, but in all fairness, I think he gets it right that there is a little bit of fanboyism going on here, and more generally on any S***** Audio thread. There's nothing wrong with loving a product/company and voice it on public forums, but when actual information becomes a casualty of all this noise, it is a bit annoying/unfair to honest, current and potential customers out there that are just looking at objective, fact-checked information.
 
I'm sorry but when I read that my $600 DAC has a rate switching bugs, multibit+<insert-buzzword-here> or not, I'm a little worried. Even if power-cycling the device as a temporary fix doesn't seem like a major pain, it kinda is considering the price tag and the lack of remote (I know, I'm lazy, but I hate it when I have to leave the sofa to reboot anything). Fair enough, a world of today is surrounded with buggy devices, but that's tolerable as long as it is software that can be updated, buggy hardware is IMHO a very different thing, especially for that kind of money.
 
Let's summarize the current state of the problem and the proposed fixes according to this thread:
A. The problem
- Changing sample/bit rate while streaming to the device can sometimes lead to garbled/distorted sound
B. Working solutions
- Power-cycling: always
- Switching source: sometimes
C. Non-working (aka BS) solutions
- Microsoft pseudo-science: I'm talking about all the messages supporting the idea that software can be fixed by uninstalling/reinstalling/rebooting.
- Self-healing hardware: needs to be mentioned even though I'm almost embarrassed to. The theory that the device self-heals after XXX hours, sort of thanks to a magical "burn-in" process. I find it concerning that an official sponsor actually supports the existence of this very phenomenon in this thread (on Nov 18)
 
Btw, I know the manufacturer communicated a low percentage of similar issues reported, but I would take it with a grain of salt: in the wonderful world of support, few people dare to report, and out of those who do not report anything are a majority of people who do not use a certain problematic feature (e.g: rate switching). I hope not but It's still entirely possible that this issue affects all the devices :/
 
Just my 2 cents

 

[Ableza]

The question I have for you, "Collot," is does the reported problem affect your personal Bitfrost DAC?

 

[aamer23]

this not my first Schiit product and they have all done as the company said they would for example they said we have made loki but if you want plug and play ease of use dont buy this product. so over the last 5 odd years i have started to trust Schiit and if they say very few MB are having this issue i would believe them and they have also tested customer units to get the fault to show up however it has not manifest itself in the Schiit labs as yet.  so as nature of computer audio is complex something in your system might be triggering the issue not necessarily the DAC you may have issues on the usb output on the pc 

 

[Collot]

  this not my first Schiit product and they have all done as the company said they would for example they said we have made loki but if you want plug and play ease of use dont buy this product. so over the last 5 odd years i have started to trust Schiit and if they say very few MB are having this issue i would believe them and they have also tested customer units to get the fault to show up however it has not manifest itself in the Schiit labs as yet.  so as nature of computer audio is complex something in your system might be triggering the issue not necessarily the DAC you may have issues on the usb output on the pc 

Hmmm, I've actually repro'ed the issue on 2 different machines running 2 different OSes. I kinda doubt the issue is not on the Bifrost's side. But you are right that their tech support is excellent and I am sure they are working hard to identify the issue, no doubt about that. I guess I'm just a little irritated to read those messages deeming the issue as "minor" because it's not, at least for me. 
 
But you're right, a fix down the line may be coming, I'll just wait and see how it goes.
 
Merry xmas to everyone 

 

[aamer23]

happy holiday and new year to all

 

[bigro]

Hmm lets go to a Corvette show and get annoyed when you find that a lot of people really like Corvettes. That's also where you will find the people with the most experience with Corvettes.
 
I Have one of the Bimbys that had this issue well past the 100 hour hour mark.  The standard MS reinstall drivers is standard because that is the software that allows the computer to communicate with a piece hardware. This is done in all OS's at one point in time or the other when the issue seems to be one that may be a symptom of the failure to communicate.When it was established that while wonky, it was not the USB Driver then the Bimby was looked at. Normal Troubleshooting and if you look back in the thread Mike Moffat has Acknowledged this.
 
My theory why power cycling or switching inputs seems to work (this is from my hours of trying to replicate and studying the issue) is that when the bitrate changes relays are used. After working with relays for a few years day in and day out,  I have seen relays that randomly fail to activate when a trigger is applied then "magically" start working as normal.. When the trigger that is activating the relay coil is either released or applied that stuck relay usually will reset and things are back to normal. Power cycling will do this 100% of the time if its not a completely failed relay. if it is in fact a relay There is logic to the fact that with use it will break or burn in. A relay at the heart is a Mechanical device and tolerances can be off but with use they will seat.
 
Can I be Wrong ? Possibly, but there is at least one other person who has done the same as I have, the bit rate burn in with the same results the issue magically vanished. We Ran songs at different rates for some time forcing the relays to actuate with the expectation of 1 it will really "burn or break" in and work or 2 it will break and then we can send our bricks back to Schiit. It's is still sitting here. the magic seems to have worked.
 
The corvette show is where you will find the people willing to put the time in and also where the collective will get together and work to help figure out the issues. Apple has put out a phone which had issues getting reception if you held it wrong. Chipotle seems to be hell bent trying to poison people and Toyota had cars that decided not to use brakes and or randomly accelerate. I do not know of one company that has a 100% success rate at putting out flawless products over time. However At least in this case we have some access to the engineers and an excellent support system to help resolve the issue.
 
Merry Christmas All.

 

[Ableza]

 
Yes it does :/

Sorry to hear that.  Have you contacted Schiit technical support?

 

[earnmyturns]

  Well, there is no question that Oleg's words have been harsh, not to mention that his limited mastery of the english language has made it hard to understand some of his points, but in all fairness, I think he gets it right that there is a little bit of fanboyism going on here, and more generally on any S***** Audio thread.

I have very little sympathy for "not a native speaker" excuses. I'm not one either, so I put a lot of effort into learning how to communicate in English. Putting the burden on your readers to decode your garbled message is just rude. As for alleged fanboyism, please check any Apple-related forums for the real deal. Of course people who dwell here are favorably inclined to Schiit gear, otherwise they'd be elsewhere.

There's nothing wrong with loving a product/company and voice it on public forums, but when actual information becomes a casualty of all this noise, it is a bit annoying/unfair to honest, current and potential customers out there that are just looking at objective, fact-checked information.

What information? The delta-sigma vs multibit discussion has been had at length here and elsewhere, including Schiit's site. You can either believe those arguments, on hear for yourself. If you can't get the gear to hear for yourself, though, but there's nothing anyone can do with words to add to what has already been discussed. The OP wanted some magical "objective" assurances, which are just not available from anyone you'd want to trust, simply because the interactions between signal processing, downstream gear, and human hearing are too complex to quantify at the level of detail that matters to distinguish DACs at this quality level. You just have to hear and decide.

I'm sorry but when I read that my $600 DAC has a rate switching bugs, multibit+<insert-buzzword-here> or not, I'm a little worried.

That's a totally different issue, nothing to do with the OP's concerns of delta-sigma vs multibit. For the record, my Bimby had one instance of this problem (from a Linux+MPD USB source), but never again (it might help that I'm feeding it with S/PDIF coax now). Anyway, if your Bimby doesn't work, you should return it for a replacement or your money back. The fact that many users are happy with theirs doesn't mean that the product is perfect. I've been in the tech industry, using all sorts of products, since the 80s, and I've experienced many cases where a product works well for me but there are some really unhappy users too. There are just too many permutations of use cases to test them all, so something never seen in manufacturers testing may hit a nontrivial fraction of actual users. All software (or software-hardware combo) sucks, just some a bit less than some other.