[theeclone]

I do understand that the signal will now be going through the standalone but, does the dac have that much control and ability that it literally steers the majority of the sound signature that we hear? If true, can you explain how this works? Thank you.

There are different schools of thought on this. I tend to be a "source first" person, so I try to focus on good source components first, even if it means putting up with just "ok" amps and speakers until I can afford to upgrade them.

I think of it kind of like the Princess & the Pea. Yes an "ok" set of downstream components will make it harder to get a sense of improvements in the sources (like lots of mattresses made it harder [but not impossible] to detect the pea underneath), but the source in my mind tends to be the biggest limiting factor of a system.

It's like when I first heard my buddy's vinyl rig after listening to mostly mp3s for months in the early 2000's. He didn't have an amazing rig overall, but I instantly realized the vinyl source was doing something my digital sources couldn't.

 

[2bxfile]

Thanks Clone:

I just noticed that a new page had been turned and hence just now saw your message. Sorry for the delay.

I must be slow tonight, but in all that you have written in response to my question, would you be saying that yes, the dac has that much control and ability that it literally steers the majority of the sound signature that we hear and therefore would override the sound signature of my onboard dac. If it was better then I would have better sound and if the standalone was worse, then worse sound would be heard.

Thanks again.

 

[theeclone]

Thanks Clone:

I just noticed that a new page had been turned and hence just now saw your message. Sorry for the delay.

I must be slow tonight, but in all that you have written in response to my question, would you be saying that yes, the dac has that much control and ability that it literally steers the majority of the sound signature that we hear and therefore would override the sound signature of my onboard dac. If it was better then I would have better sound and if the standalone was worse, then worse sound would be heard.

Thanks again.

No problem. I tried to keep it somewhat general in the sense that all I can really speak to are tendencies. All I can say is that to me, source components tend to make a bigger difference than amps & speakers. Nothing normally "overrides" anything else in a complex system like a stereo or headphone rig IMO.

So yeah, if your onboard DAC sucks, then getting a better discrete DAC would (IMO) quite likely be a more significant upgrade than, say, getting a better amp and somehow routing the onboard DAC from the old amp into the new one at line level, especially if we're talking dollar for dollar.

System synergy is important though, and comes into play. It's one of probably many factors, including personal taste, that makes blanket statements about sources vs amps difficult. Which is why I stick to talking about tendencies rather than simple yes/no, do-this/not-that answers.

Sorry if that's clear as mud but I could go on and on about this stuff. Trying to keep it reasonably brief despite it being a complicated topic IMO.

 

[2bxfile]

Thanks so much Clone for your help and your time. I do understand what you are saying now. Take care and enjoy your weekend.

 

[Neweymatt]

Still staying within the threads perimeters, I wanted to ask a general question regarding the digital analogue converter technology. If anyone has any knowledge and or insight into this I'd appreciate your thoughts. Here's my question:

If one has an integrated amp whose onboard dac has a narrow soundstage and you introduce a standalone dac into the setup that is known to have an expansive sound stage with almost 3D type abilities, will the standalone dac's capabilities override the narrow soundstage of the amp?

Thanks.

I do understand that the signal will now be going through the standalone but, does the dac have that much control and ability that it literally steers the majority of the sound signature that we hear? If true, can you explain how this works? Thank you.

While I wouldn’t diminish the importance of a DAC in your audio chain, if the problem you are trying to solve for is soundstage, then I think there are other things you could look to for improvement before changing the DAC.

By far the biggest differences to soundstage I’ve experienced is by changing the IEM or Headphone itself. Every one is different in some ways, and usually very significantly in width, height and depth. Might help to know what IEM or headphone you are looking to improve?

Next, to get the most out of a given transducer, amping it properly will also affect how well it can perform at its best. I’ve noticed this more with planar magnetic and dynamic drivers, they seem to benefit most from amps able to deliver current. Again, what amp is it that you are currently working with?

To me, DACs affect tonal character and detail retrieval much more than they do soundstage. Things like brightness or warmth, whether the sound is grainy or smooth and organic. And of course a better quality DAC should be better at delivering a cleaner, clearer image with more available detail that the amp and transducers can work with.

 

[2bxfile]

While I wouldn’t diminish the importance of a DAC in your audio chain, if the problem you are trying to solve for is soundstage, then I think there are other things you could look to for improvement before changing the DAC.

By far the biggest differences to soundstage I’ve experienced is by changing the IEM or Headphone itself. Every one is different in some ways, and usually very significantly in width, height and depth. Might help to know what IEM or headphone you are looking to improve?

Next, to get the most out of a given transducer, amping it properly will also affect how well it can perform at its best. I’ve noticed this more with planar magnetic and dynamic drivers, they seem to benefit most from amps able to deliver current. Again, what amp is it that you are currently working with?

To me, DACs affect tonal character and detail retrieval much more than they do soundstage. Things like brightness or warmth, whether the sound is grainy or smooth and organic. And of course a better quality DAC should be better at delivering a cleaner, clearer image with more available detail that the amp and transducers can work with.

Hello Neweymatt and thank you for your response.

I have a 2 channel system with no IEM or Headpone use. My amp, which I'm looking to replace as it has an issue that cannot be duplicated when in service, is a simple Cambridge CXA 60 connected to Monitor Audio Bronze 2 speakers with a little Schiit Eitr helper. I was hoping to improve upon my amp's onboard dac with either an MM2 or a Bifrost 2/64 to achieve some sonic enhancement that I have heard others find with either of these two when introduced into their system.

Since I mentioned my amp, the problem that I have with it is that it won't shut down with the first attempt. Also with the first attempt, it will switch, all on its own, to another digital display on the front panel, say D3 to D2 and at that point I have to place it back to D2 or there is no sound. It gets to a point that when I turn it on it will just shut off all on its own. At that point I have to unplug it for about 15 minutes and this helps for a couple of days. I've done the factory reset a number of times but to no avail. The other day I was listening to a track and my amp shut itself off all of its own accord - I thought the hydro went out. I own two of its remotes and it acts this way with both. I seem to get more normality with it when I manually turn it off and on but now even this is not giving me any days of normal.

So it seems that I'm in need of another amp as this one is becoming burdensome to me. Somethings are hard to duplicate in service.

So thanks again Neweymatt.

 

[Neweymatt]

Hello Neweymatt and thank you for your response.

I have a 2 channel system with no IEM or Headpone use. My amp, which I'm looking to replace as it has an issue that cannot be duplicated when in service, is a simple Cambridge CXA 60 connected to Monitor Audio Bronze 2 speakers with a little Schiit Eitr helper. I was hoping to improve upon my amp's onboard dac with either an MM2 or a Bifrost 2/64 to achieve some sonic enhancement that I have heard others find with either of these two when introduced into their system.

Since I mentioned my amp, the problem that I have with it is that it won't shut down with the first attempt. Also with the first attempt, it will switch, all on its own, to another digital display on the front panel, say D3 to D2 and at that point I have to place it back to D2 or there is no sound. It gets to a point that when I turn it on it will just shut off all on its own. At that point I have to unplug it for about 15 minutes and this helps for a couple of days. I've done the factory reset a number of times but to no avail. The other day I was listening to a track and my amp shut itself off all of its own accord - I thought the hydro went out. I own two of its remotes and it acts this way with both. I seem to get more normality with it when I manually turn it off and on but now even this is not giving me any days of normal.

So it seems that I'm in need of another amp as this one is becoming burdensome to me. Somethings are hard to duplicate in service.

So thanks again Neweymatt.

Yeah, it sounds like your amp is having other issues that wouldn’t be solved just by using an external DAC.

I don’t know a lot about 2ch and speakers, but another thing that can help a lot is changes to the room acoustics to reduce sound reflection and resonance. Simple things like carpet and curtains can make surprising improvements to how you hear your speakers, regardless of the amp/dac.

Good luck!

 

[2bxfile]

Yeah, it sounds like your amp is having other issues that wouldn’t be solved just by using an external DAC.

I don’t know a lot about 2ch and speakers, but another thing that can help a lot is changes to the room acoustics to reduce sound reflection and resonance. Simple things like carpet and curtains can make surprising improvements to how you hear your speakers, regardless of the amp/dac.

Good luck!

Hi Newey: I do realize that my amp's problem won't be solved by using a new dac as that is a no brainer. My question started with a general dac query on the previous page. But thank you regardless.

 

[valkyrieorion]

BF2/64 arrived and yet again it does not like my PC with USB. It won’t detect unless I unplug the USB cable (it’s a snake oil but I’ve tried a few). Anyone recommend a usb powered hub or just go with the Amazon one or star tech? Also I thought maybe to get a pci usb card instead. I’ve tried all the usb ports I have free and have it as the only usb device connected to the couple 2.0 ports I have. I also have usb power saving disabled.

 

[FellowTraveller]

BF2/64 arrived and yet again it does not like my PC with USB. It won’t detect unless I unplug the USB cable (it’s a snake oil but I’ve tried a few). Anyone recommend a usb powered hub or just go with the Amazon one or star tech? Also I thought maybe to get a pci usb card instead. I’ve tried all the usb ports I have free and have it as the only usb device connected to the couple 2.0 ports I have. I also have usb power saving disabled.

FWIW I have a Macbook M1, and I have successfully used many non-powered hubs, my favorite being a UGREEN with something like 9 ports. My Bifrost 2/64 works well plugged into one of the USB-A ports on it. I should add that it's most reliable when I turn on the BF 2/64 and IOTAVX SA3 integrated amp BEFORE I turn on the Macbook. This is totally reliable and the BF 2/64 is always recognized immediately. There are times when I've changed the order by accident and turned the Macbook on first, when the Macbook won't recognize that the BF 2/64 is connected. When that happens I do unplug the entire hub and replug it in, and it always works.

 

[ksb643]

Back to 1-3 day shipping on the website.

 

[JerryLeeds]

Does the Bifrost reclock the coax & toslink signal? Probably not. I think some DACs do this.

I wonder if adding an external word clock to my source would be much of an improvement to the digital signal?

 

[joenetic]

Does the Bifrost reclock the coax & toslink signal? Probably not. I think some DACs do this.

I wonder if adding an external word clock to my source would be much of an improvement to the digital signal?

Yes, I have my Bifrost 2 with DDC + external 10Mhz OCXO, external clock has improvement in detail and sharpness of sound, there has transformer in coax interface of Bifrost 2, this transformer add some jitter to the coax signal, change it to better spec transformer should decrease the jitter of received signal, that's why I2S interface has better sound quality than coax, I2S without transformer in interface, just LVDS receiver ICs add jitter, I believe the jitter is less than the transformer generates.

 

[valkyrieorion]

FWIW I have a Macbook M1, and I have successfully used many non-powered hubs, my favorite being a UGREEN with something like 9 ports. My Bifrost 2/64 works well plugged into one of the USB-A ports on it. I should add that it's most reliable when I turn on the BF 2/64 and IOTAVX SA3 integrated amp BEFORE I turn on the Macbook. This is totally reliable and the BF 2/64 is always recognized immediately. There are times when I've changed the order by accident and turned the Macbook on first, when the Macbook won't recognize that the BF 2/64 is connected. When that happens I do unplug the entire hub and replug it in, and it always works.

Thanks this helped me solve the issue (I think!). Waiting for it to fully cycle it's power up and make a clicking noise then powering up my PC has had it detecting now constantly. I think I wasn't waiting long enough when I tried powering it up first before.

 

[2bxfile]

I'm getting ready to purchase a piece of Schiit's product line i.e., one of their dacs.......finally.

Either the Modi Multibit 2 or the Bifrost 2/64 and would like to get opinions on which one you have found or have heard to dig deeper into the low frequencies.

I appreciate any feedback.

Thank you.