[slwiser]

Here is a link which discusses some of the surface things about second order effects.

The Naked Truth about Interconnect Cables

I leave it to you to continue this review by your internet searches.

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by slwiser /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here is a link which discusses some of the surface things about second order effects. The Naked Truth about Interconnect Cables I leave it to you to continue this review by your internet searches.

1. No doubt about the "first order" effects.

2. The "second order" effects are a complete arbitary denomination of the stuff we discuss here, with no concrete data or informations on the relevance for the recorded signal or the audible range, as usual.

3. "Third order effects": Haha, very funny. Maybe is meant to boost the credibility of the "second order"-blabla.

I'm disapointed. If it's so easy to "strew sand in your eyes"(german phrase, hope the picture works in english, too), than maybe fuses, cables and blessings from Machina Dynamica are for you.

It's all been said, without any of my questions answered. Please continue characterizing night and day differences.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by slwiser /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Naked Truth about Interconnect Cables

First order is measurable and provable. Second order is plausible, but there's no evidence to back it up. Third order is totally made up. This link is sales pitch of the first, second and third order.

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevenkelby /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah I'm out of this thread. No point trying to teach a pig to sing. Wastes your time and upsets the pig.

Aw... Don't go away upset!

See ya
Steve

 

[slwiser]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vul Kuolun /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1. No doubt about the "first order" effects. 2. The "second order" effects are a complete arbitary denomination of the stuff we discuss here, with no concrete data or informations on the relevance for the recorded signal or the audible range, as usual. 3. "Third order effects": Haha, very funny. Maybe is meant to boost the credibility of the "second order"-blabla. I'm disapointed. If it's so easy to "strew sand in your eyes"(german phrase, hope the picture works in english, too), than maybe fuses, cables and blessings from Machina Dynamica are for you. It's all been said, without any of my questions answered. Please continue characterizing night and day differences.

Consider this:

First order effect: Distance- s (ft)
Second order effect: velocity - v (ft/sec)
Third order effect: acceleration - a (ft per second squared)

All very well known and observable effects.

So if you want to disregard all second and third order effects go ahead.

The problem is that in wires these things have been normally described by their first order effects and everything else disregarded. You have to put a signal on a scope to observe rise times and other things and then the average guy does not know how to deal with those. Reflections due to impedance changes are a function of wire lengths. The ability to capture the rise of a signal is importance in how the S/PDIF signal is resolved. The impedance reflections can mask the true signal making the receiver chip lose resolution. This is just one example in wires. Second example we could work on capacitance effects of wires and how capacitance effects the signal but I will go not there yet.

People who do high-end cables that are for real (Virtual Dynamics for one and Audioquest for another) understand these effects and since they are not well understood prefer to not share what they know to keep their trade secrets, secret.

 

[Spiug31]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vul Kuolun "strew sand in your eyes"(german phrase, hope the picture works in english, too)

In english the phrase is "to throw sand in your face"

It doesn't work with snow but it's much more fun done that way

, my first proper snowfall of the winter is happening as I type

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by slwiser /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... First order effect: Distance- s (ft) Second order effect: velocity - v (ft/sec) Third order effect: acceleration - a (ft per second squared) ... The problem is that in wires these things have been normally described by their first order effects and everything else disregarded. You have to put a signal on a scope to observe rise times and other things and then the average guy does not know how to deal with those. Reflections due to impedance changes are a function of wire lengths. The ability to capture the rise of a signal is importance in how the S/PDIF signal is resolved. The impedance reflections can mask the true signal making the receiver chip lose resolution. This is just one example in wires. Second example we could work on capacitance effects of wires and how capacitance effects the signal but I will go not there yet. People who do high-end cables that are for real (Virtual Dynamics for one and Audioquest for another) understand these effects and since they are not well understood prefer to not share what they know to keep their trade secrets, secret.

Matching in- and outputsignal on a scope doesn't seem like rocket science to me.
If these effects have such a great effect on the primitive signal (or the power line) we talk about, it would be of large interest in many disciplins of modern technology outside the audiophile biotope; Actually, i'd bet there are many companies dealing with much more complex transmition problems than "20Hz to 20Khz" with research departments probably multiple times bigger than the companies you named altogether; i find it absolutely implausible they have a secret knowledge that for example Sony, Yamaha or the Frauenhofer Institute has no access to or does not use for some mysterious reason.

The question remains the same: How does a reproduced waveform from 20Hz to 20Khz look when played back with a "audiophile" fuse, and with a standard fuse?

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiug31 /img/forum/go_quote.gif In english the phrase is "to throw sand in your face" It doesn't work with snow but it's much more fun done that way , my first proper snowfall of the winter is happening as I type

Thanks.

 

[Patrick82]

With my old Krell KAV-500i power amp I upgraded from a stock fuse into a Hifi-Tuning GOLD fuse and the improvement was almost as small as Brilliant Pebbles which is on the bottom of my ranking list. I wasn't sure if it was a real improvement, it could have sounded better just because the fuse was cleaner. Later when I bypassed all fuses I heard huge improvements. The biggest improvement for the ICEpower amp and the smallest for the transport.

I don't like to spend $30 for something that is designed to break. I rather have something cheaper and less frail than a little fuse. I'm using Nordost Valkyrja wiring to bypass all my fuses, no problems. If something fries it fries, it's a small price to pay for a huge improvement in sound. Audiophiles don't care about skin burns anyway, because their girl (audio system) doesn't have eyes.

 

[bigshot]

Real men don't use fuses!

See ya
Steve

 

[Acoustic Chef]

Best quotes of all time!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by IPodPJ /img/forum/go_quote.gif in audio, everything you think you know at any given time you don't. It only winds up making you look like an ass later.

Quote:

because their girl (audio system) doesn't have eyes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevenkelby /img/forum/go_quote.gif No point trying to teach a pig to sing. Wastes your time and upsets the pig.

*

 

[Acoustic Chef]

You crimp a weak fire hose.. BOOM

Water falls make alot of noise and hurt my ears.

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acoustic Chef /img/forum/go_quote.gif You crimp a weak fire hose.. BOOM Water falls make alot of noise and hurt my ears.

You're just not trying to crimp a weak fire hose, but the waterfall.
Maybe you can answer my questions from a few pages earlier.

Quote:

So resistance is the keyfeature? * Could you please put the limitations of the fuse in relation to the power consumption of an average headphone amplifier? * How much energy is lost through resistance in the fuse, and how much is still left for the amp? * How much does the amplifier need to feed it's own circuits and the headphone? * How much energy do you gain by using a fuse with, let's say, half the resistance of the standard fuse? Always putting aside, that the rest of the of the amp will have a much much smaller capability of using high currents than a standard fuse?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acoustic Chef /img/forum/go_quote.gif Best quotes of all time!!

In case you do not want to answer, you can always signalise agreement with people making stupid insults.
That, of course, could make you look just like the average audio snake oil salesman promoting his products in an audiophile internet message board.

 

[Acoustic Chef]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vul Kuolun /img/forum/go_quote.gif In case you do not want to answer, you can always signalise agreement with people making stupid insults. That, of course, could make you look just like the average audio snake oil salesman promoting his products in an audiophile internet message board.

Na, I was not in any real agreement, just thought they were funny.

Well... the first one's a bit true, and applies to everyone including myself, it's just something I think we all have to come to a realization with. We all need to take what ever it is we think we know and throw it all out the window if we ever plan to get anywhere in audio. Our ears will take us places no simple measuring device or logic ever will.

Some people will have a greater understanding then others, yes; but an understanding gained through observation... not ignorance. I mean what is science anyway?

Let me ask you this Vul.. When you pop your headphones on, what is it exactly is it you're listening too?

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acoustic Chef /img/forum/go_quote.gif Our ears will take us places no simple measuring device or logic ever will.

I disagree. It's your mind that takes you to "audio heaven", not your ear.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Acoustic Chef /img/forum/go_quote.gif Some people will have a greater understanding then others, yes; but an understanding gained through observation... not ignorance. I mean what is science anyway?

Science is the key to all the music reproduction abilities we have today. It all is based on "simple" electrical engineering. If all we had was the "inventions" of the fuse - and cable companies, we wouldn't have much fun listening to music. We'd have to sing ourselves.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Acoustic Chef /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let me ask you this Vul.. When you pop your headphones on, what is it exactly is it you're listening too?

Why are you asking?

I'll tell you if you tell me how big the "crimp" of the fuse is in relationship to the power consumption of a better headphone amp.
As you may have noticed, i'm not a technicaly educated person, just technicaly interested.