[castleofargh]

please let's avoid going from "stuff at -350dB are audible", directly to "every DACs are the same". we're looking for factual stuff, and proper demonstrations, not to replace one extremist empty claim by another one.

Why do you sign your post with your initials?

Are you aware the forum software shows your name above your post?

But, you need to calm down and keep an open mind. You think you understand what rob was saying, but I don’t think you do.

Rather than get over excited posting under your ‘g’ persona, why not reach out to rob and ask him? Isn’t that the scientific way?

at last someone is here to keep us all sane and bring up the real issues. what's up with the G at the end of Gregorio's posts? that's the real big question everybody has been talking about in 2018.

seriously, I think it's time for you to stop your overly enthusiast fanboy protest. it went on long enough and you clearly have nothing to contribute to the matter of human hearing. which happens to be the one thing you need to know something about to weight in on Rob's assumptions.
as for reaching Rob, why? it's not a one time misunderstanding or slip of the tong, he said similar stuff several times. we stuck to -200dB but he went way lower than that. he inferred from his suspicious anecdotes, hearing abilities for humans that no research can agree with. he knows it and mentioned it himself a few times. yet proceeded to repeating the exact same stuff in speeches, on the forum, in interviews... we're way past the "maybe I misunderstood what he meant", situation.
humans have human hearing, not super human hearing. this sort of sums up mine and other people's reactions to that video and others.

 

[bigshot]

I only know what I've heard for myself. I have an Oppo HA-1. That is the fanciest DAC/amp I've ever heard... and it sounds exactly like my $40 Walmart DVD player. I'm not surprised by that because I expect all DACs and amps and players to be transparent. I would be VERY interested in finding out how something could sound better than transparent. But it's going to have to involve audible sound, because I know I can't hear inaudible sound.

By the way, I just checked the Walmart site. They don't carry the exact model I bought from them any more. But they have similar no name Chinese brands of DVD players as low as $24. Take your best DAC, line level match the output with the $24 DVD player with identical CD/WAV files. Run the feed through a single switchable headphone amp. Do a blind test. See what you come up with. If it's not even worth $24 to you, grab any player you have in your house and try it.

I know what I'm saying doesn't seem right. You pay all that money, it should translate to better sound, right? I'd be interested in hearing what people say when they actually do a test themselves.

 

[Whazzzup]

transparency can be seen through,lol

 

[ZappaMan]

please let's avoid going from "stuff at -350dB are audible", directly to "every DACs are the same". we're looking for factual stuff, and proper demonstrations, not to replace one extremist empty claim by another one.


at last someone is here to keep us all sane and bring up the real issues. what's up with the G at the end of Gregorio's posts? that's the real big question everybody has been talking about in 2018.

seriously, I think it's time for you to stop your overly enthusiast fanboy protest. it went on long enough and you clearly have nothing to contribute to the matter of human hearing. which happens to be the one thing you need to know something about to weight in on Rob's assumptions.
as for reaching Rob, why? it's not a one time misunderstanding or slip of the tong, he said similar stuff several times. we stuck to -200dB but he went way lower than that. he inferred from his suspicious anecdotes, hearing abilities for humans that no research can agree with. he knows it and mentioned it himself a few times. yet proceeded to repeating the exact same stuff in speeches, on the forum, in interviews... we're way past the "maybe I misunderstood what he meant", situation.
humans have human hearing, not super human hearing. this sort of sums up mine and other people's reactions to that video and others.

I’m not a fanboy, I just think you should keep an open mind. But for some reason, you can’t do that.

 

[bigshot]

I think it's good to have an open mind. I also think it's good to fact check people who are trying to sell you something, even if they are someone you respect. I'm watching a series on Netflix about con men. It's teaching me a lot about how human nature is manipulatible and how trusting reputations and surface appearance instead of questioning can get you in big trouble. Last night I watched The Grifters. It had a whole bunch of ways how people use expectations to convince people to do things without thinking. Salesmen know that they can stretch the truth a bit and make claims that aren't entirely verifiable. That is how they set their own brand apart from the competition. "New formula!" "Whiter whites!" "Takes a licking and keeps on ticking!" That is all sales pitch. People who design audio equipment are no different. They have marketing strategies too.

It seems Rob Watts has spent his career trying to double down on specs. If the competition goes down to -120dB, he designs his to go to -140 or -170dB. That's cool. But it isn't necessary for human ears that can only hear about 45 or 50dB at a time, and can adjust to about double that. When your equipment goes further into purely theoretical quality than the competition, you need to plant the idea that numbers like that are necessary. That's cool. I understand. But I still can't hear it, so it isn't necessary to me.

 

[ZappaMan]

I think it's good to have an open mind. I also think it's good to fact check people who are trying to sell you something, even if they are someone you respect. I'm watching a series on Netflix about con men. It's teaching me a lot about how human nature is manipulatible and how trusting reputations and surface appearance instead of questioning can get you in big trouble. Last night I watched The Grifters. It had a whole bunch of ways how people use expectations to convince people to do things without thinking. Salesmen know that they can stretch the truth a bit and make claims that aren't entirely verifiable. That is how they set their own brand apart from the competition. "New formula!" "Whiter whites!" "Takes a licking and keeps on ticking!" That is all sales pitch. People who design audio equipment are no different. They have marketing strategies too.

It seems Rob Watts has spent his career trying to double down on specs. If the competition goes down to -120dB, he designs his to go to -140 or -170dB. That's cool. But it isn't necessary for human ears that can only hear about 45 or 50dB at a time, and can adjust to about double that. When your equipment goes further into purely theoretical quality than the competition, you need to plant the idea that numbers like that are necessary. That's cool. I understand. But I still can't hear it, so it isn't necessary to me.

That’s cool,I can see you feel strongly about it, we’ve tried our best to discuss it a bit, I think we understand each other.
I just think robs a nice guy, I trust him, I don’t know a lot about the science of sound, but it’s nice to have a forum to discuss, exchange Ideas. You guys are actually informing me on a few things, and i totally get that brand loyalty can become dogma.

It’s just my observation, that in general, you guys (you know who you are) should lay off the personal insults to rob, as that’s no way to conduct yourselves.

I’ll shut the door behind me.

 

[Whazzzup]

I don’t think it’s about Robb per se. it’s claims by la scala, total dac, chord. There all respected, all pursuing the best dac possible, all charging an arm and leg. Audio reviews say that each is best, but how can they be. Unless they are trying to feed audiophile insecurities with fake or exaggerated facts or inaudible differences, or just unnecessary expense to justify the price point. Now this seems harsh but it’s really not.
From guilty as charged perspective I sure am, and I don’t regret a thing. But I’m starting to realize we need have checks n balances for honesty. I would never put down anyone’s gear tho, have at it

 

[bigshot]

It's not at all about him. And I'm sure he's a nice guy. But I can think of a lot of nice guys I wouldn't trust to hold my wallet for me!

 

[SilverEars]

It's not at all about him. And I'm sure he's a nice guy. But I can think of a lot of nice guys I wouldn't trust to hold my wallet for me!

Do nice guys take advantage of audiophiles with a 10k DAC? He wants to ruin our hobby by taking our arms and legs. It's greed like this ruins the hobby.

 

[bigshot]

Nice guys can be out for themselves, yes.

 

[colonelkernel8]

The dude is making top class audio equipment - has been with acclaim for some time - has probably been the inspiration for millions of revenue - job creation - real stuff.

He’s a long way from a used car sales man, he’s a very open and informative individual who actually answers questions everyday on the chord forums here on head-fi.

So watch yourself!! He might drop by and that’ll be embarrassing for you.

He’ll be embarrassing exactly zero people here, just himself.

 

[colonelkernel8]

Can you prove that a sound at 200db would kill you, have you personally saw someone die?

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/175996-can-a-loud-enough-sound-kill-you

“150 decibels is usually considered enough to burst your eardrums, but the threshold for death is usually pegged at around 185-200 dB”

 

[gregorio]

[1] Why do you sign your post with your initials? [1a] Are you aware the forum software shows your name above your post?
[2] But, you need to calm down and keep an open mind. You think you understand what rob was saying, but I don’t think you do.
[3] Rather than get over excited posting under your ‘g’ persona, why not reach out to rob and ask him? Isn’t that the scientific way?
[4] I’m not a fanboy, I just think you should keep an open mind. But for some reason, you can’t do that.
[5] I just think robs a nice guy, I trust him, I don’t know a lot about the science of sound.

1. It's not my initials, just AN initial and that's just the way I choose to end my posts. 1a. Yes, of course.

2. I'm not basing my criticism only on the posted video, I've read various other posts and marketing presentations by him and I do understand what Rob Watts has repeatedly said. And, I should keep an open mind about what, that pigs can fly, that the earth is flat? Do you have an open mind that pigs can fly and the earth is flat? If not, why not?

3. I'm not over excited. "G" is not my persona, it's just an initial. I don't "reach out" to Rob for two reasons: Firstly, I wouldn't be the first to challenge his ridiculous claims but he carries on making them nevertheless and secondly, he spends advertising money here on Head-Fi, if I challenged him my posts would just get deleted, regardless of whether my challenge was justified. Deleting challenging responses is pretty much the exact opposite of "the scientific way" but then Head-Fi doesn't exist to present the facts or science, science is actively discouraged in every sub-forum on Head-Fi and explicitly banned in some, except this one and Rob Watts never visits this one, for obvious reasons.

4. Again, no I can't keep an open mind about his claims and the "some reason" I can't is because his claims are completely ridiculous, they contradict the laws of physics, ALL the reliable evidence and even common sense. And again, do you keep an open mind that pigs can fly or that the earth is flat?

5. All successful con men appear to be trustworthy "nice guys", that's why they are successful con men!! I can't be absolutely certain that Rob Watts is a con man but the only alternative is that he's completely ignorant of a whole bunch of basic scientific facts, plus masses of scientific evidence and is completely self-deluded, so the former seems far more likely. I'm sure there are some flat earther's who are "nice guys" too, maybe if you "don't know a lot about the science" and saw a video of a "nice guy" flat earther you'd keep an open mind that the earth is flat?

G

 

[castleofargh]

Do nice guys take advantage of audiophiles with a 10k DAC? He wants to ruin our hobby by taking our arms and legs. It's greed like this ruins the hobby.

he's not holding a gun on their head telling them to buy. I really don't see the problem with someone pricing a DAC however he likes. if it's too expensive he won't sell many and that's his problem. if we were talking about taking humans hostage with the only drug to keep them alive, then I'd get wanting to go do bad things to the CEOs of those pharmaceutical companies. but a DAC? who cares? there are hundreds if not thousands of different models at almost any prices.

 

[colonelkernel8]

Do nice guys take advantage of audiophiles with a 10k DAC? He wants to ruin our hobby by taking our arms and legs. It's greed like this ruins the hobby.

He can sell this stuff for whatever he wants (they do look like modern art pieces, which is a cool thing, not my style at all, but they're trying), but lying about "performance improvements" that can't actually audibly exist to justify the price is what sticks in my craw.