[Mikhail]

Quote:

Originally posted by Carlos3 Anyone know the output impedance of the Singlepower amps, like the MPX3?

The MPX3 has a nominal output impedance of 20 ohms. This will vary slightly based on the 6SN7 tube type used. The Supra's impedance is below 10 ohms. No loading effects occur on any headphones used due to the low output impedance. So, any headphones from 32 ohms on up will work very well.

 

[Carlos3]

Thank you Mikhail.

 

[Tomcat]

bobjew, Hirsch,

Good listening fatigue? That's Newspeak for audiophiles.

"Right now, I never reach the fourth movement of Beethoven's ninth. But after my next upgrade, I'm sure, my system will be so resolving, I will be stressed out by the end of the second movement. I can hardly wait."

Face it, a real-life concert doesn't mean stress, the brain doesn't have to work overtime to make sense of it all. Listening to natural instruments, to real-life music is effortless. If a system causes stress and exhaustion, it's less than accurate and less than natural. If a component causes listening fatigue, I regard this as a seriuos flaw.

 

[bobjew]

Tomcat:

When I go to a live show, whether it be jazz, rock, or classical; I want to hear every note and nuance of the improv, song, score, or composition. I want to see how the musicians are interacting with each other and to the audience. To see how they are dressed. I want to go backstage. I want to see/hear the guy whose doing the coughing ten rows back. I want to know the background of the music and musicians. I want to see beautiful black women dressed to the nines waiting at the bar to see the show. I want to get feedback on how they are playing that night, get feedback from my friends who are sharing the music with me.
I want to hear a Mc Coy Tyner piano improvisation and be as sweaty as he is at the end of an hour and a half set, because at that point, I am totally satisfied, satiated, and because of that, I feel great. I have taken a great journey with a great player.
This is exactly what I want my equiptment to be able to reproduce for me when I can't be there in person.

To reiterate;
I said nothing in my post about fatigue or stress

Regards,
Bob

 

[tom hankins]

If you want an amp that lets you hear the source your using, the cables, and the quality of your tubes, get a Singlepower. If you have one and don't like the sound, IMO you need to check things out upstream. I listen for hours every night and never suffer any kind of fatigue. It puts the least amount of color on the music of any of the headphone amps I've got to hear. If your source can send the bass to the amp, it will pass it along to your headphones.

 

[Sean H]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tomcat bobjew, Hirsch, Good listening fatigue? That's Newspeak for audiophiles. t, a real-life concert doesn't mean stress, the brain doesn't have to work overtime to make sense of it all. Listening to natural instruments, to real-life music is effortless. If a system causes stress and exhaustion, it's less than accurate and less than natural. If a component causes listening fatigue, I regard this as a seriuos flaw.

I can see what they are saying. There is a big difference between listening to concert in a music hall with the performers at some distance in front of you versus having them suspended in air all around the sides of you within it's own little world - within your world. I suppose the realistic nature of the performance through the headphones creates such a convinceable world in your head that it starts to seriously compete with the real world around you and I could imagine in time that is what could start to get to you. I see this kind of fatigue as having to deal with a reality within reality, if that makes sense. I guss it could become sort of a mental process that you start to go through to sort it all out.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tomcat bobjew, Hirsch, Good listening fatigue? That's Newspeak for audiophiles.

Tomcat,

You're persisting in using the word "fatigue", when neither Bobjew or I have used it, simply because of the negative connotation. Perhaps I can try a different level of explanation that may get through.

Imagine uninspired sex with an unappealing partner. Eventually, you're going to be done, and want out of there. That phenomenon can equate to listening fatigue.

Now imagine the best sex with the most attractive partner you can fantasize about. It's going to be great, but you're still eventually going to wear out and need a rest, if only because sex requires some exertion if you're doing it right. You're still going to wind up tired, but who would want it any other way?

If you can picture that distinction, try applying it to what we're saying.

Total involvement in music can be emotionally draining, if you're getting the full impact of the music. If you're not getting that impact and feeling the emotional response, your system is probably great for background music, but is missing key elements of a high-end system. Full immersion in music can be very draining, and a system that will not allow that is flawed, IMO.

Sean H,

It's not about the difference between live music and music on headphones. It's simply about the degree to which you can become emotionally and intellectually involved in music, regardless of format. If an audio system lets you become as emotionally involved as you would at a live performance, including a feeling of exhaustion such as that you might experience after a wonderful concert, then I can pay that system no higher complement.

 

[Sean H]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hirsch It's not about the difference between live music and music on headphones. It's simply about the degree to which you can become emotionally and intellectually involved in music, regardless of format. If an audio system lets you become as emotionally involved as you would at a live performance, including a feeling of exhaustion such as that you might experience after a wonderful concert, then I can pay that system no higher complement.

I got ya. Sustaining really high emotions, even if they are "good" emotions, for long periods of time can be draining, as noted in your example.

I would still wager to guess my suggestion that listening to such an accurate musical performance strapped your head holds some water as being another way something like that could get to you in time in dealing with the sheer mental stress.

 

[Tomcat]

Hirsch,

I am afraid this distinction you're trying to make isn't working. In one instance (traditional listening fatigue), you end up exhausted after a certain period of listening, while in the other instance (fatigue through involvement), you end up exhausted after a certain period of listening.

My argument is this: if the symptoms are identical - exhaustion, fatigue, whatever you want to call it - isn't it safe to assume that the causes are very much alike?

Your idea that a high degree of involvement can cause one to be emotionally drained after listening for some time - that's a new twist. So far, both of you have talked about "attention" that was exhausted, a concious effort one isn't able to keep up any more. Both of you even seem to imply a task that is to to be fulfilled by the listener.

bobjew: "You just find youself trying to follow the elements in an amazingly rich music scape that is laid out for you(...)"

Hirsch: "Most people cannot sustain that level of attention and involvement over long periods of time."

Hirsch: "(...)you're exhausted not by a flaw in the presentation of the music that is blocking involvement in the music, but by the mental effort that total involvement in music can demand."

It's either about emotion ot it's about attention. I either relax and listen to music or I make a mental effort to analyze sound. I don't believe it's possible to do both. Your idea that a high degree of involvement can be rightfully called exhausting or fatiguing is something I have tried to address in my Beethoven story. Once again: I have never experienced life music to be exhausting. Just think of the consequences: if you were right, the more resolving a system, the more involvement of the listener there would be, and the quicker exhaustion would set in. I believe yours is a pretty far fetched explanation for this phenomenon of exhaustion.

 

[jpelg]

This is turning into a rather interesting discussion about something new. I find myself understanding aspects of boths sides. I hope that it remains civil and focuses on clarifying the language & terms we use to describe audio. Cool.

 

[SuperMario]

I find this a most interesting discussion/issue/question. And it is getting better and better!!...

IMHO, as everything in life, emotionally and/or intellectually involvement requires a certain amount of effort, which will lead you to a draining process; sooner or later, you will feel exhausted.

That exhaustion, however, can be either a painful and excruciating feeling or a very pleasant and rewarding one, depending on the level of fulfilment or enjoyment/gratification you are getting from that activitiy.

Want an example? I am getting delightfully tired of this discussion

; thus, I won't give up! - I want more and more till I drop d...

Regards to all

 

[gbeard]

I think I'll weigh in here with a comment or two.

The idea of "fatigue" when listening can (as has already been noted in this thread) be caused by many things, but one of the most prevalent is the nasty digital quality of a poorly mastered PCM recording played through a poorly designed CD player. It doesn't take long for this combination to cause "listener fatigue" and usually a bad case of what I call "ear burn".

My understanding of what bobjew and Hirsch's comments are refering to, have more to do with casual listening versus active or critical listening. I think of it as the involvment factor. I own a preamp--the First Sound Presence Deluxe Mk. II-- which offers the same kind of involving sound that bobjew refers to with the MPX3. When the ancillaries are up to snuff, and a great recording is being played, my system demands that you listen. Even with the volume low it is hard to focus on anything else. Read a book? Doubtful. Work on bills? No way. Listen to your spousal unit tell you about the dress she bought to day? Not a chance. All that matters is the music. This can be a draining experience with the right recording.

Todd Warnke, when he reviewed the FS pre for soundstage, likened the experience to that of listening to master tapes. I agree. This kind of highly involving component does ask for the listener to become part of the process and not merely a bystander. In the case of my preamp, this is not at all a negative. It is a tremendous positive. But that is not to infer that all great audio components have this attribute, or should have it to be great.

My stock portfolio $ .02

gb

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tomcat My argument is this: if the symptoms are identical - exhaustion, fatigue, whatever you want to call it - isn't it safe to assume that the causes are very much alike?

Goodness no! Suppose you go to the doctor complaining of exhaustion and fatigue. He ponders that these can be symptoms of mononucleosis. You then tell him that you've just completed running a marathon earlier that day. If he doesn't throw a medical book at you for not telling him earlier, he's still going to drop the diagnosis of mono.

In one case exhaustion is a normal result of an activity you've been engaging in. In another instance, it can be evidence of pathology.

Quote:

Your idea that a high degree of involvement can cause one to be emotionally drained after listening for some time - that's a new twist. So far, both of you have talked about "attention" that was exhausted, a concious effort one isn't able to keep up any more. Both of you even seem to imply a task that is to to be fulfilled by the listener.

This is a very old argument actually. In psychology, sustained attention is a fairly mature area of study. The fact is that attention over long periods is difficult to maintain. It can be easier if the stimulus is involving, but attention still degrades over time, simply because it must. It is a drain on our mental resources. We can maintain attention longer if we take breaks, etc. This isn't an issue with background music, simply because it is not a focus of attention. Just something going on while we do something else.

Quote:

bobjew: "You just find youself trying to follow the elements in an amazingly rich music scape that is laid out for you(...)" Hirsch: "Most people cannot sustain that level of attention and involvement over long periods of time." Hirsch: "(...)you're exhausted not by a flaw in the presentation of the music that is blocking involvement in the music, but by the mental effort that total involvement in music can demand." It's either about emotion ot it's about attention. I either relax and listen to music or I make a mental effort to analyze sound. I don't believe it's possible to do both. Your idea that a high degree of involvement can be rightfully called exhausting or fatiguing is something I have tried to address in my Beethoven story. Once again: I have never experienced life music to be exhausting. Just think of the consequences: if you were right, the more resolving a system, the more involvement of the listener there would be, and the quicker exhaustion would set in. I believe yours is a pretty far fetched explanation for this phenomenon of exhaustion.

And here we can disagree. Music is not necessarily relaxing. It can produce exhilaration, sadness, despair, beauty, triumph. The wonderful gift of music can range over the entire spectrum of human emotion. You may be able to relax while listening to Beethoven's Ninth. I cannot. Whether live or listening to a recording, I'm going to be experiencing a range of feelings.

Attention and emotion are two different things. They interact, in that stimuli with high emotional content tend to be attention-drawing (we care about these stimuli), while it can be difficult to attend to stimuli that are devoid of emotional content.

It becomes more complex still. Solomon and Corbitt proposed a psychological model in the early 70's called opponent processes. Without going into technical detail, it basically says that people cannot sustain intense emotions repeatedly or over long periods of time. There is a limit beyond which our systems actually defend themselves against sustained emotion, and try to return to a hedonically neutral state. Scary thought when applied to music listening, at least for me.

Incidentally, if you've never found live music to be exhausting, try listening to a very bad grade school orchestra

 

[AdamZuf]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tomcat Face it, a real-life concert doesn't mean stress, the brain doesn't have to work overtime to make sense of it all. Listening to natural instruments, to real-life music is effortless. If a system causes stress and exhaustion, it's less than accurate and less than natural. If a component causes listening fatigue, I regard this as a seriuos flaw.

besides that i'm with Hirsch very much on the emotional range, i think that expecting the same thing from two very different positions (live vs. headphones) is impossible.
if you're trying to get somewhere (let's say, your personal peaks) in both cases, and expect that from two systems that share very little resemblance in reality, forget it. the way to the goal of each of them can be as different as they are.
let's look at some of the circumstanses, besides the way the sound behaves differently:
on the concert you have a constant volume level - you'll get tired if it's too high. on your headphones you can control the volume - and your fatigue is a function of it.
on the concert you are a part of something that really happens, your mind doesn't have to use some of its powers to imagine a scene, and you enjoy more easy ...your exploration to the music is routed differently.
on a concert you hear often much less and/or much less precision then on your headphone. how many times did you find yourself complaining about instrument sound or balance? probably lots of times...so you didn't get a high stimulative experience, though it was very pleasant.
and above all - you are wearing god damn little speakers on your head

it's very weird to the mind..the whole headphone thing.
it will always know they are there to some point.. so it seems worthless to try to truely convince it in something else. it knows it's synthetic - so trying to get the original emotional response will require to tweak the sound language. this is were the contradictions lays for audiophiles in the music REproduction buisness.
i think we have to balance this type of quest against other qualities we gain, as headphone listeners.

 

[bobjew]

Wow, Hirsch, where do I sign up for the fan club?