Rising cost of "audiophile" equipment and importance of bias/blind testing
May 25, 2017 at 4:10 PM Post #1,321 of 1,376
I can't believe the bias that exists on threads like this against the productive sector of society and those who distribute and market products. I can't speak about the rest of the world, but here in the British colonies, virtually anything ordered from online sources such as Amazon can be returned within 30 days. Best Buy will almost always accept returns without questions. I haven't visited a brick and mortal audio store in years, but the ones I used to deal with were very generous about at-home auditions. They in particular have to depend on maintaining good relationships with their customers. We are starting to go our of our way to protect snowflakes on college campuses. Seems like maybe we will have to start protecting snowflakes of all ages from cradle to grave.
 
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May 26, 2017 at 7:23 AM Post #1,322 of 1,376
[1] According to your logic, we should carefully consider the impact of every purchase of any kind we make.
[2] Sorry, but whatever social conscience, if any, I have doesn't extend that far. Just doesn't compute with me. But my own personal moral conscience tells me not to shame people.

[3] I don't advise on HeadFi. I often share my listening experience with the gear I use.

1. No, that's not my logic! Nice example of a stawman fallacy though!

2. So, you've got a moral conscience against negatively affecting an individual consumer but can't even "compute" a moral conscience against negatively affecting all consumers? Your logical position doesn't "compute", why would you be concerned with increasing the quality of your reproduction equipment while simultaneously be contributing to lowering the quality (and number) of recordings for your system to reproduce?

3. That's just semantics. Why would you share your experience of your gear if you didn't want anyone to read it, take note of it or find it useful?

G
 
May 26, 2017 at 7:54 AM Post #1,323 of 1,376
Tough to keep up with whatever your logic or position is. Do you or do you not maintain that audio consumers have some kind of "civic" duty to spend their money in way that doesn't support your belief that audio companies mislead consumers and make too much money? You sure spent a lot of time seeming to claim that you do believe that. Whether or not it is your position, it is one I reject. There are people who boycott certain companies to advance causes they deem worthy. Most of those causes deal with pretty weighty issues. I hardly think the money audio companies make is on a level of most of those causes.

And my belief that it is wrong to shame people, as you claimed you are readily prepared to do, isn't limited to consumers, but to everyone with whom I deal.

virtually all my music is from Tidal HD, which costs me $20 a month, and I have access to millions of recordings. I hardly think whatever I have spent on my gear is somehow limiting my musical choices.

I don't expect anyone to necessarily ignore whatever experience I post (and by the way probably about half of my posts deal with music rather than gear). When I do describe my experiences with gear, I choose my words carefully enough and don't have such a low opinion of others to believe they are going to put their families out on the streets by spending recklessly in reliance on something I say. In fact I often state my belief that the pain one can suffer from spending money on audio that is other than purely discretionary funds is not ever worth whatever enjoyment they think they may derive from audio purchases.
 
May 26, 2017 at 8:15 AM Post #1,324 of 1,376
[1] Tough to keep up with whatever your logic or position is.
[2] Do you or do you not maintain that audio consumers have some kind of "civic" duty to spend their money in way that doesn't support your belief that audio companies mislead consumers and make too much money?
[3] I hardly think whatever I have spent on my gear is somehow limiting my musical choices.
[4] I don't expect anyone to necessarily ignore whatever experience I post ...
[5] (and by the way probably about half of my posts deal with music rather than gear).

1. As my logical position has not changed, I'm not sure why you're having such difficulty keeping up with it.
2. No, I do not believe that. But what your question has to do with my response is unfathomable, just another good example of a strawman fallacy!
3. Great, but what has that got to do with anything I said? Another strawman.
4. Thanks for clearing that up.
5. Why would you be interested in posting about music?

G
 
May 26, 2017 at 8:27 AM Post #1,325 of 1,376
@gregorio You said: "You are part of a collective of consumers and that collective's decisions influences and changes the industry. You therefore bare some of the responsibility of those changes and ARE therefore accountable for your decisions!"

This is what I have been responding to.

I post about music because for me that is the whole purpose of the headphone system I own, and I enjoy sharing that interest with many HeadFi members with whom I regularly interact.
 
May 26, 2017 at 8:49 AM Post #1,326 of 1,376
@gregorioYou said: "You are part of a collective of consumers and that collective's decisions influences and changes the industry. You therefore bare some of the responsibility of those changes and ARE therefore accountable for your decisions!" This is what I have been responding to.

[2] I post about music because for me that is the whole purpose of the headphone system I own, and I enjoy sharing that interest with many HeadFi members with whom I regularly interact.

1. Correct and my quote was in response to you saying you were accountable to no one but yourself for your purchase decisions.
2. Yes, that's what makes no logical sense. You enjoy sharing your interest in reducing the quality of music, which is the whole purpose of you owning a good quality headphone system?

G
 
May 26, 2017 at 9:14 AM Post #1,327 of 1,376
And I continue to believe I have no responsibility to anyone other than me (and I will add my family) as to how I spend my money on audio. So what??? Sue me !!!!

What in the world are you talking about??? I enjoy sharing my "interest in reducing the quality of music"?????
 
May 26, 2017 at 3:47 PM Post #1,328 of 1,376
I enjoy sharing my "interest in reducing the quality of music"?????


Electronics can't improve or reduce the quality of music. That's up to the musicians involved. Stereo equipment can only present high fidelity or not. Thankfully, achieving that isn't terribly expensive nowadays.
 
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May 26, 2017 at 5:05 PM Post #1,329 of 1,376
And I continue to believe I have no responsibility to anyone other than me (and I will add my family) as to how I spend my money on audio. So what??? Sue me !!!!

What in the world are you talking about??? I enjoy sharing my "interest in reducing the quality of music"?????

we're drifting dangerously.

here is my very personal opinion on things:
-people should be able to buy whatever they like
-manufacturers should be able to sell at whatever price they want

that is the nice little utopia of freedom in a free market and I'm ok with that in general, and only in general. in reality we don't let kids do everything they want, because we believe they haven't been properly prepared to face some of the aspects of life on their own. just like we have laws to protect the elderly who started losing their mind from unscrupulous people lying their ways into a sell(well at least in France we have stuff like that). when we see members of society who lack the means for clear judgement on a matter, those of us who got lucky to be in a better viewing position, sometimes get the desire to protect them. we're a pack of wolves, but still a pack. it can be with a law, or it can be some simple advice. it can be trying to put a light on those who sell products that aren't objectively worth it. whatever the mean, the general idea is that we sometimes care for more than ourselves. it's not a duty, it's just something some people want to do.
in the consumer audio world, inexperienced people are everywhere. some lucky fellows with a little, or a lot more knowledge try however they can, to help and inform members. knowledge is power blah blah blah, if people are warned and better informed they become better equipped to make whatever decision they will make.
here the theme was blind testing to check the audible value of a product instead of looking at the price tag. blind test is treated as the dirty family secret in most audio forums, many forbid discussing it, headfi put those who care in the same little room to talk to each other without annoying the rest of the school. and the hobby in general will stay a joke as long as it stays that way. it's soccer without video for referees. I know nothing about soccer, but enjoy the actor skills developed specifically because the sport was refusing the one tool that would help make it better. audio is the same, because almost nobody recognizes tools to assess subjective impressions, manufacturers adapted their marketing toward that weakness, making loads of subjective claims because nobody will check properly and even better, you don't get sued for subjective BS. so right now we have random pricing going up for rather unspecified reasons, and marketing pointing toward things that people don't know how to verify even when they have the gear. IMO the average audiophile could do with a little help and any mention of blind testing and biases is a good thing. if after they decide to listen to some pedantic guy claiming he and his beer know better than blind tests, well it's his life, his money, and I wish him well.
 
May 26, 2017 at 5:27 PM Post #1,330 of 1,376
IMO the average audiophile could do with a little help and any mention of blind testing and biases is a good thing. if after they decide to listen to some pedantic guy claiming he and his beer know better than blind tests, well it's his life, his money, and I wish him well.

Blind tests certainly are more reliable than drunk tests. Not sure they are always as much fun :ksc75smile:
 
May 26, 2017 at 7:08 PM Post #1,331 of 1,376
Can I get a breathalyzer attachment for my high end DAC?
 
May 26, 2017 at 7:42 PM Post #1,332 of 1,376
it would activate at a given value the same way tube amp warm up before closing the circuit?
"you are not drunk enough for real high end". or maybe the opposite: "sorry sir but this is a respectable high end DAC, not a pub. we only serve music to sober clientele". I could do the French accent for the message to add the last touch of snobbish restaurant expected from TOTL DACs.
 
May 27, 2017 at 6:58 AM Post #1,334 of 1,376
here is my very personal opinion on things:
-people should be able to buy whatever they like
-manufacturers should be able to sell at whatever price they want

I agree. I'm just stating that there are however consequences. Audiophile manufacturers now pretty much exclusively focus on High Definition/Resolution instead of high fidelity and they do this because they are fulfilling a demand. This is circular though, because they have created that demand. The end result is that your first point cannot now be fulfilled! For example, I should be able to buy a new, reasonably priced 16bit 44.1/48k DAC which fulfils all practical fidelity requirements and, not just find one, there should be quite a bit of competition/choice. However, AFAIK I can't, I would have to buy into a "HRA" DAC and the extra cost (or lower fidelity) of resources being spent on supporting a wider array of formats (so called standard and high res formats) rather than concentrating on just 16/44.1/48. The choice of other audiophiles (to drink the koolaid and buy into HRA) has removed my choice! While this is annoying, the end result is typically fairly minimal as I can buy a reasonably priced "HD" DAC and the resources not concentrated on 16/44.1/48 should have minimal (or no) audible impact on fidelity. This isn't necessarily the case but regardless, there's a more serious problem, which is the consequences of consumer choice on the material that our audio equipment is reproducing. It's a more serious problem because it's both very audible and affects all consumers.

From the late 1950's to the 1990's the quality of recordings and the very evolution of all popular music genres was based on a combination of factors: 1. Advancing technology; audio hardware, acoustics, audio formats and audio software AND 2. Expertise; skill, experience and creativity of the producers and various engineers AND 3. Time; Time not only to allow the artists and engineers to fully exercise their expertise but time for the engineers, producers and artists to experiment with their expertise and the technology! We are facing two problems:

A. Recording technology isn't really advancing. Certain areas, such as transducers and acoustics are only advancing minimally. It's essentially old technology which has been developed over the decades to the point that new tweaks are relatively insignificant. The audio formats are not advancing at all, in terms of audible sound quality. Likewise with recording hardware (ADCs), which reached their peak about 15 years ago. The software (plugins, digital processors) have also by and large reached their peaks, 5 or so years ago. However, the options available to artists/producers are today almost limitless and therefore, far more importantly:

B. Consumer choice! Consumers such as @pctazhp are choosing to purchase "virtually all of their music" from streaming services. The massive reduction in revenue this represents has had and will continue to have a massive effect on all three of the points above. The top commercial studio always represented not only the best technology but the widest choice of technology, such as; the best recording acoustics, the best monitoring environments, the best and widest choice of mics and the best recording and mixing/processing hardware. They also represented the best audio engineering expertise. Over the last 20 years, around 70% of the best commercial music recording studios have closed their doors for good and the pool of competing experts who knew how to get the best out of them has likewise declined. Furthermore, due to the far lower revenue, the amount of available time has been drastically cut, albums used to take several/many months to make, today they have to be made in weeks. There's barely time to achieve competency, let alone any serious time to experiment. In fact, many commercial albums are now partially or even entirely made without any involvement of commercial studios and therefore lack engineering expertise, quality recording acoustics or monitoring environments and choice of mics, etc. All this has been occurring as a consequence of consumers choosing digital download as their preferred purchase option. During a time of maturing digital hardware and software, when sound quality and musical innovation should have been advancing, they've remained broadly static or declined. And, it's set to decline further still, as streaming provides significantly lower revenues to music creators (artists, studios, engineers and producers) than even the shock of digital download revenues. I'm not a Luddite, I'm not trying to turn the clock back to "the good ol' days", I'm just stating the inevitable consequences of the choice that consumers are making, which, whether or not they realise it or whether or not they choose to take any responsibility for it, is the choice/demand for lower cost + declining sound quality + slowing musical innovation/evolution. We've already reached a point where there are effectively virtually no major professional recording artists any more!

This brings me back to a few posts ago. What's the point of increasing the quality of your reproduction equipment while simultaneously demanding lower quality recordings for your system to reproduce? The only obvious logical conclusion is; pride of ownership of reproduction equipment AND, little/no interest or care for music/audio itself.

G
 
May 27, 2017 at 7:57 AM Post #1,335 of 1,376
Well.
I notice dirrerences in recordings and actually gravitate to download those recordings over others. Sure the appeal comes first but quality close second.
I notice differences between 16 bit 48 fr and 32 bit 384 fr.
I notice differences between cans at various price points and cans at similar price points.
Notice I never said better.
I am a sucker like everyone, while I don't get the opportunity to try equipment like we should, I did pick up early on that every review is positive, fan boyism runs deep, I did enjoy reading end user thoughts, while still variable and biased I did get to drill down to some truths.
I criticize no one for any purchase at any price point, but do have self imposed limitations, although these may seem excessive or not to others I don't care. I am merely seeking enjoyment utility within a construct and have succeeded somewhat through the myriad of options available, that can seem quite daunting.
Yes I have some bias errors involving price but I don't blame anyone for it. I have to hold myself accountable and as long as I am enjoying the experience as well as the journey, mission accomplished.
I see nothing wrong in spending 2000 or 200000 on a system. Does not mean I'm at either end at all.
 
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