wavoman
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2008
- Posts
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Here are the details of what I previously reported (with thanks to members jeremyrp and strid3r, plus Yuri at PS3SACD.com, who started this whole thing).
I had been ripping SACDs at 88.2, getting an LPCM bitstream on S/PDIF coax from my Wadia CDP (an AudioPraise Vanity board would be another choice, as would a modded Oppo).
But I wanted more. DSD is exactly 8 x 176.4, so that seems a perfect choice. When converting DSD to an exact multiple of 44.1, there is no interpolation going on inside the down-sampling, only "decimation" (should be called octomation, really -- choosing one bit from every 8). One out of 8 seems better than one out of 9 (to get 88.2) -- for sure hardware can do an 8 bit operation cleanly.
Morevoer, 88.2 is less than 96, and many people seem to think that 96 is the magic point that represents audible improvement (nothing beyond). Furthermore, many SACDs are mastered at 176.4, so in essence you lose nothing by down-converting to this rate. There's also an AES paper that says 176.4 is indistinguishable from true DSD (of course there are also AES papers that say 44.1 redbook is indistinguishable from 96!).
And in truth, I had my heart set on 176.4 for no good reason, and I just wanted to make it happen.
You will need:
1. An older PS3 (60GB will work) with SACD capabilites, set in the Audio set-up menu to downsample to 176.4 over HDMI (note you cannot make this check-box selection stick until you right-arrow to a sub-menu where you confirm that this choice might harm your speakers!). [You can also play with the bitstream options in the Music menu ... see the PS3SACD site for details].
2. An HDMI-to-S/PDIF breakout box (some sources below).
3. Of course, a DAC that can handle this, with a diagostic display so you can confirm 176.4 is happening.
That's it. It just works. I can't explain why nobody has pointed this out before, except possibly that newer PS3's don't have SACD playback, and/or the breakout box is hard to find (but it's not really, and it's cheap)!
The breakout box is sold under several brands, but appears to be made in China by Portta:
Portta
Arrow down until you see "HDMI Audio Splitter" My unit has 2 HDMI's, this one has 4 (my unit is no longer made). Note that the text on the Web site explains my model ("Input could be switched between two HDMI device") right after they say "Input: 4 x HDMI Output: HDMI + SPDIF or COAX(RCA)" So much for keeping your web site up-to-date! The picture would seem to indicate that this unit has IR remote control, and a little DAC for HP output -- my unit does not have these, and they don't mention these in the write-up, so who knows?
They sell these for $60 direct on eBay:
HDMI 4x1 HIFI Switch SPDIF/COXA Stereo HD Audio V1.3b - eBay (item 250523334560 end time Dec-01-09 06:43:56 PST)
Note the eBay picture shows the features mentioned above, but just as on their web site, there is no clear description, although they do mention "Stereo" in addition to coax and toslink ... you could email the seller I guess.
My unit had model number HDMISW2HF, and if you Google that you will see it for sale at a lot of places, $60 or a little more. I got it from SmartVM.com for $84 -- see the price and picture at:
HDMI Switcher 2x1 v1.3b with Separate SPDIF COAX Toslink Audio Output Channel
Under this model it is branded Kanex (see
Kanex HDMI 2x1 Switcher v1.3b HDMISW2HF Separate SPDIF COAX Toslink Audio Output Channel 2x1 HDMI Switcher-Best Computer Online Store Houston Buy Discount Prices Texas-Directron.com
but it is sold out there) or Apogee:
Apogee HDMI v1.3b 2x1 Switch w/ Separate S/PDIF Coax and Toslink Audio Output - HDMISW2HF, $68.95
($68 but sold out, so see
Apogee (HDMISW2HF) HDMI 2x1 Switcher v1.3b w/ Separate SPDIF COAX Toslink Audio Output Channel - HDMI Switchers - Apo-HDMISW2HF
$84 and in stock. Now Apogee has a U.S. HQ:
Apogee About Us
but shows this model (the one I have) on their web site as out-of-stock.
HDMI Switchers v1.3 Full HD 1080p
You could contact them.
I would try to get the unit I have, since we know it works.
My test CD was the SACD release of Cheap Thrills (Janis Joplin -- Big Brother and the Holding Company) ... an iconic album of my generation. There is no redbook layer on this CD. I A/B'd the 176.4 LPCM bitstream with the best redbook version, the Japanese pressing from the '90s.
The difference is striking, in favor of the SACD. Maybe it's better mastering, who knows. Track 5 "Turtle Blues" is the acid test -- the breaking glass will amaze you on the SACD. And when Janis says "I once had a daddy" (she means a sugar daddy) you hear the two d-sounds in "daddy" dripping with such emotion ... you realize that Janis was not the kind of girl your mother would want you to date.
I had been ripping SACDs at 88.2, getting an LPCM bitstream on S/PDIF coax from my Wadia CDP (an AudioPraise Vanity board would be another choice, as would a modded Oppo).
But I wanted more. DSD is exactly 8 x 176.4, so that seems a perfect choice. When converting DSD to an exact multiple of 44.1, there is no interpolation going on inside the down-sampling, only "decimation" (should be called octomation, really -- choosing one bit from every 8). One out of 8 seems better than one out of 9 (to get 88.2) -- for sure hardware can do an 8 bit operation cleanly.
Morevoer, 88.2 is less than 96, and many people seem to think that 96 is the magic point that represents audible improvement (nothing beyond). Furthermore, many SACDs are mastered at 176.4, so in essence you lose nothing by down-converting to this rate. There's also an AES paper that says 176.4 is indistinguishable from true DSD (of course there are also AES papers that say 44.1 redbook is indistinguishable from 96!).
And in truth, I had my heart set on 176.4 for no good reason, and I just wanted to make it happen.
You will need:
1. An older PS3 (60GB will work) with SACD capabilites, set in the Audio set-up menu to downsample to 176.4 over HDMI (note you cannot make this check-box selection stick until you right-arrow to a sub-menu where you confirm that this choice might harm your speakers!). [You can also play with the bitstream options in the Music menu ... see the PS3SACD site for details].
2. An HDMI-to-S/PDIF breakout box (some sources below).
3. Of course, a DAC that can handle this, with a diagostic display so you can confirm 176.4 is happening.
That's it. It just works. I can't explain why nobody has pointed this out before, except possibly that newer PS3's don't have SACD playback, and/or the breakout box is hard to find (but it's not really, and it's cheap)!
The breakout box is sold under several brands, but appears to be made in China by Portta:
Portta
Arrow down until you see "HDMI Audio Splitter" My unit has 2 HDMI's, this one has 4 (my unit is no longer made). Note that the text on the Web site explains my model ("Input could be switched between two HDMI device") right after they say "Input: 4 x HDMI Output: HDMI + SPDIF or COAX(RCA)" So much for keeping your web site up-to-date! The picture would seem to indicate that this unit has IR remote control, and a little DAC for HP output -- my unit does not have these, and they don't mention these in the write-up, so who knows?
They sell these for $60 direct on eBay:
HDMI 4x1 HIFI Switch SPDIF/COXA Stereo HD Audio V1.3b - eBay (item 250523334560 end time Dec-01-09 06:43:56 PST)
Note the eBay picture shows the features mentioned above, but just as on their web site, there is no clear description, although they do mention "Stereo" in addition to coax and toslink ... you could email the seller I guess.
My unit had model number HDMISW2HF, and if you Google that you will see it for sale at a lot of places, $60 or a little more. I got it from SmartVM.com for $84 -- see the price and picture at:
HDMI Switcher 2x1 v1.3b with Separate SPDIF COAX Toslink Audio Output Channel
Under this model it is branded Kanex (see
Kanex HDMI 2x1 Switcher v1.3b HDMISW2HF Separate SPDIF COAX Toslink Audio Output Channel 2x1 HDMI Switcher-Best Computer Online Store Houston Buy Discount Prices Texas-Directron.com
but it is sold out there) or Apogee:
Apogee HDMI v1.3b 2x1 Switch w/ Separate S/PDIF Coax and Toslink Audio Output - HDMISW2HF, $68.95
($68 but sold out, so see
Apogee (HDMISW2HF) HDMI 2x1 Switcher v1.3b w/ Separate SPDIF COAX Toslink Audio Output Channel - HDMI Switchers - Apo-HDMISW2HF
$84 and in stock. Now Apogee has a U.S. HQ:
Apogee About Us
but shows this model (the one I have) on their web site as out-of-stock.
HDMI Switchers v1.3 Full HD 1080p
You could contact them.
I would try to get the unit I have, since we know it works.
My test CD was the SACD release of Cheap Thrills (Janis Joplin -- Big Brother and the Holding Company) ... an iconic album of my generation. There is no redbook layer on this CD. I A/B'd the 176.4 LPCM bitstream with the best redbook version, the Japanese pressing from the '90s.
The difference is striking, in favor of the SACD. Maybe it's better mastering, who knows. Track 5 "Turtle Blues" is the acid test -- the breaking glass will amaze you on the SACD. And when Janis says "I once had a daddy" (she means a sugar daddy) you hear the two d-sounds in "daddy" dripping with such emotion ... you realize that Janis was not the kind of girl your mother would want you to date.
