[defoLinY]

Kanye West's MBDTF is a piece of work

 

[Oggranak]

This is true, but to some extent the phrase is used improperly on purpose. It's kind of like when people call graphite lead, except more necessary. It's just used as a catch-all phrase for the manipulation that occurs after recording just because a lot of us can't think of what the actual terminology is.

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Just an FYI you guys aren't actually talking about well mastered albums. mastering is one step in the process of recording an album. You are mostly just talking about albums that just plain sound good. Mastering doesn't have anything to do with the recording, the mix, the effects or EQ on individual instruments, etc. Mastering is about the final touches on a project after the final mix is complete. Those final touches are usually just EQ and dynamics changes applied to the entire recording. You are probably confused because we often hear about "remastered" albums that are actually taking source recordings (maybe 4, 8, 24, 32, 64 tracks, etc..) and basically starting from scratch with the work done after the basic parts are recorded. Honestly, on a truly well mastered album the mastering wouldn't even be noticed. It would just present all of the work done before it in the best way possible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_mastering

You evidently have zero understanding of what I was saying. Jimi Hendrix, to you, sounds "interesting/whatnot". My point is that what matters is how good the music sounds. This doesn't mean how real it sounds, this doesn't mean how talented the band sounds, this doesn't mean how good the sound quality is! For Christ's sake it's not a complex concept! Mastering is a tool in the artist's arsenal the same way a guitar is, and using it effectively can really enhance a song. This doesn't mean that there is no validity to lo-fi recordings. This doesn't mean that mastering is the only important part. This doesn't mean that Jimi Hendrix sucks.

Classic straw man, but I don't think you meant to do it: I think you're just really bad at reading and comprehending other people's posts.

Music is sound. Every bit that makes up music is a sound and manipulation of those sounds is manipulation of the music. It's becoming an obsolete mindset, seperating music from "sound"-- mastering isn't as simple as "the more it sounds like the band is in the room, the better the mastering is". Mastering gives a very open-ended way to manipulate the way a record affects the listener, changing the properties of the sounds involved and how they relate to each other. Especially in older music, mastering was viewed as a very linear thing -- it scaled from bad to good. Nowadays many are starting to see it as an art that cannot be measured easily, and cannot be viewed separately from the other aspects of music.
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By this logic Jimi Hendrix sucks, because ANY song I've ever heard by him sounded exactly like some record played on a portable suitcase phonograph, even remastered albums.  By this logic it also means he had no talent.  Your logic is very flawed.  I guess this is why so many people listen to off-the-wall jazz type non-mainstream stuff anymore.  The kind of stuff that is keeping the DVD-A and SACD formats alive but not mainstream.  It is horrible music, but the content sounds good.  I'm neither way.  If I like music but it sounds like crap I won't listen to it.  If I like the sound but the music is crap I won't listen to it.  I will only give my time to real talent in music AND sound.  Music is emotion manifested through sound.  Sound is not music.
 
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If a guitarist with zero talent plays something mediocre that gets worked over by a team of engineers to the point that it is a powerful and moving piece of music, it is good. If a very talented guitarist records something that is impressive but doesn't sound interesting/whatnot, it is not good. The only variable that matters is the output.

 

 

[9pintube]

Quote:

Just an FYI you guys aren't actually talking about well mastered albums. mastering is one step in the process of recording an album. You are mostly just talking about albums that just plain sound good. Mastering doesn't have anything to do with the recording, the mix, the effects or EQ on individual instruments, etc. Mastering is about the final touches on a project after the final mix is complete. Those final touches are usually just EQ and dynamics changes applied to the entire recording. You are probably confused because we often hear about "remastered" albums that are actually taking source recordings (maybe 4, 8, 24, 32, 64 tracks, etc..) and basically starting from scratch with the work done after the basic parts are recorded. Honestly, on a truly well mastered album the mastering wouldn't even be noticed. It would just present all of the work done before it in the best way possible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_mastering

ShawnSmith,I do see what you are talking about, (your words)"You are mostly just talking about albums that just plain sound good".......OK I'd like to hear/ read Some of the best Masters alive today, starting with, Stan Riker, Steve Hoffman,Kevin Gray and Shawn R. Britton to name just a few. And Love to read their comments on what you think is "All they Do is"???      PS, I'm not trying to be a smart ass and to (call you out) but have you ever been to a recording studio and then follow the Analog Tapes/ Digital, many times to the final mastering, mix down room of a Top Shelf Recording studio???? I Have.........They Play a major roll on how the recording "Vinyl or Disc" turns out as far as SQ goes..

 

[ShawnSmith]

I'm not trying to be a jerk 9pintube, but a lot of your post is hard to decipher so I'll try to break it down and respond to what I think you said.
 
Quote:

OK I'd like to hear/ read Some of the best Masters alive today, starting with, Stan Riker, Steve Hoffman,Kevin Gray and Shawn R. Britton to name just a few. And Love to read their comments on what you think is "All they Do is"???

I think you are saying you'd love to hear what some top mastering engineers have to say about my comments. Although I am unclear why you put the words "All they Do is" in quotes because I never said those words or anything like that. In fact I never talked about mastering engineers at all so I'm not sure how you could take what I said as disparaging to them or their work . I talked about the process of audio mastering. I am aware that mastering engineers do more than just what I described. 
 
Quote:

but have you ever been to a recording studio and then follow the Analog Tapes/ Digital, many times to the final mastering, mix down room of a Top Shelf Recording studio????I Have.........They Play a major roll on how the recording "Vinyl or Disc" turns out as far as SQ goes..

yes I have been to a recording studio several times. I'm glad that you have too. I wish more people had. I think it's hard to spend time in one and not come away with a some respect for the work that goes into making a great recording. I think there'd be a lot more "audiophiles" if every music fan spent some time learning what goes into the process of making recordings.
 
My point was that the content of this thread had little to do with the title. Honestly most people would have no idea what a well mastered album is. Frankly, to know for sure if something is well mastered you'd have to hear the work before and after the mastering process to really even be able to tell for sure. I'm all for talking about albums that sound great. I love to do it, and I have my own opinions that are often very unconventional in that regard. However, let's not all pretend that we are talking about well mastered albums when we aren't.

 

[ShawnSmith]

and just so no one accuses me of derailing the topic I'll respond to myself on topic.
Quote:

I'm all for talking about albums that sound great. I love to do it, and I have my own opinions that are often very unconventional in that regard

 
here is one of my most unconventional and controversial opinions... I don't think Rudy van Gelder's recordings are all that great for the most part. I'm a jazz nut. I probably have 200+ recordings that Rudy worked on.  My biggest complaint is the way he recorded piano. It always sounds very unnatural. Nothing like what a piano sounds like when you sit next to someone playing one. I also don't care for how he places instruments from left to right. It very often lacks subtlety and doesn't translate to headphones very well.

 

[TheWuss]

Quote:

and just so no one accuses me of derailing the topic I'll respond to myself on topic.
Quote:

I'm all for talking about albums that sound great. I love to do it, and I have my own opinions that are often very unconventional in that regard

 
here is one of my most unconventional and controversial opinions... I don't think Rudy van Gelder's recordings are all that great for the most part. I'm a jazz nut. I probably have 200+ recordings that Rudy worked on.  My biggest complaint is the way he recorded piano. It always sounds very unnatural. Nothing like what a piano sounds like when you sit next to someone playing one. I also don't care for how he places instruments from left to right. It very often lacks subtlety and doesn't translate to headphones very well.

i totally agree.
but, crossfeed helps with RVG's hard stereo panning.
 
i will say that it was very surprising to read about the great RVG recordings, and to then find that they are very hit and miss.
for example, Cannonball Adderley's Somethin' Else is incredible.  Horace Silver's Song For My Father, not so much.
 
 

 

[9pintube]

Quote:

I'm not trying to be a jerk 9pintube, but a lot of your post is hard to decipher so I'll try to break it down and respond to what I think you said.
 
Quote:

OK I'd like to hear/ read Some of the best Masters alive today, starting with, Stan Riker, Steve Hoffman,Kevin Gray and Shawn R. Britton to name just a few. And Love to read their comments on what you think is "All they Do is"???

I think you are saying you'd love to hear what some top mastering engineers have to say about my comments. Although I am unclear why you put the words in Quotes   because I never said those words or anything like that. In fact I never talked about mastering engineers at all so I'm not sure how you could take what I said as disparaging to them or their work . I talked about the process of audio mastering. I am aware that mastering engineers do more than just what I described. 
 
Quote:

but have you ever been to a recording studio and then follow the Analog Tapes/ Digital, many times to the final mastering, mix down room of a Top Shelf Recording studio????I Have.........They Play a major roll on how the recording "Vinyl or Disc" turns out as far as SQ goes..

yes I have been to a recording studio several times. I'm glad that you have too. I wish more people had. I think it's hard to spend time in one and not come away with a some respect for the work that goes into making a great recording. I think there would be a lot more "audiophiles" if every music fan spent some time learning what goes into the process of making recordings.
 
My point was that the content of this thread had little to do with the title. Honestly most people would have no idea what a well mastered album is. Frankly, to know for sure if something is well mastered you'd have to hear the work before and after the mastering process to really even be able to tell for sure. I'm all for talking about albums that sound great. I love to do it, and I have my own opinions that are often very unconventional in that regard. However, let's not all pretend that we are talking about well mastered albums when we aren't.

ShawnSmith, Ok, I can see your pt.....And we end up agreeing on many of the same issues, just said/written differently... So I Should not have Put in "Quotes"As that is all they do.... I read in your op. as they just tweaked the final mix of a recording, or some other words explaining just what they do...Wrong of me!   I see now that you are quite aware of everything else they do, so I apologize for taking your words/thoughts out of contexts.... The part about Rudy Van Gelder's stuff, you might be standing alone on that one because he is considered one of the greats, But To YOU and probably many others do not like the way he recorded many instruments etc etc,,,,making them sound unnatural....Do you think ShawnSmith, that could be the the issue The Wuzz,is talking about saying he   is talking totally agrees, but, cross feed helps with RVG's hard stereo panning. Anyway I hope this clears the air, and like I said before after rereading my OP and your follow up post I think we're on the same page! Or am I'm wrong? Let me know because people need to know or explained the original intent of what and why  we write down our factual knowledge on certain subjects...I have many RVG recordings and your comments (well taken) makes me want to pull out many of them and do some SQ listening this weekend......Thanks for you time!   Peace, and I hope all is well with us now.....I think it's very important to educate all. And I liked the way you corrected some of my Quoted mistakes.......duke
 

 

[sunseeker888]

I concur with the poster on the first page suggesting Alan Parsons. While Eye in the Sky is not one of my favorites by him, I can certainly appreciate the attention to details which are evident throught the LP. My favorites by the AAP are Turn of a Friendly Card, and Pyramid, (1981) and (1978) respectively, Arista Records.
 
 
Some others which have stand-out mastering IMO:
 
J  Geils band- Freeze Frame. 2/3 speed mastered (lol it's true!) at the Cutting Room NYC by Joe Brescio. 1981
Ultravox-Vienna. mastered by Allen Zentz 1980
Dream Academy-self titled mastered at The Mastering Lab TML 1985
The The-Infected DMM direct metal mastered at Sterling Sound NYC (J. Skinner?) 1986
 
carry on gents. good tunes in this thread.

 

[TheAttorney]

Just for the record, my earlier recommendations were based on sound quality of the end result of the whole recording process.
 
I can't see how any of us, with the possible exception of LFF, are qualified to determine what proportion of the end result was due to the recording, production, mixing, mastering etc.
 
The only time most of us can comment specifically on the mastering is when comparing re-masters.

 

[mcmurray]

GNR - Chinese Democracy.
 
Bob Ludwig really outdid himself on that one.

 

[G.Trenchev]

David Sanborn - The Best of David Sanborn

 

[LFF]

Quote:

and just so no one accuses me of derailing the topic I'll respond to myself on topic.
Quote:

I'm all for talking about albums that sound great. I love to do it, and I have my own opinions that are often very unconventional in that regard

 
here is one of my most unconventional and controversial opinions... I don't think Rudy van Gelder's recordings are all that great for the most part. I'm a jazz nut. I probably have 200+ recordings that Rudy worked on.  My biggest complaint is the way he recorded piano. It always sounds very unnatural. Nothing like what a piano sounds like when you sit next to someone playing one. I also don't care for how he places instruments from left to right. It very often lacks subtlety and doesn't translate to headphones very well.

You need to listen to some the Music Matters LP's.

 

[BluFalcon]

Roxy Music - Avalon

 

[leichnitz]

To extent you are looking for new music in this thread, which you may or may not like, I would like to second two suggestions above for good mastering (defined as good mixing once the sound is laid down):
 
1.  Entroducing, by DJ Shadow.  Very interesting mastering, I listen to it and think this is what an acid trip would sound like, and
 
2.  My Beautiful DTF. . .. , by Kayne West.  Less confident of this choice as a paradigm of mastering, but we tend to be pretty old as a group and, hey, give this new stuff a listen.  This one sounds has some tracks that sound like they are mixed well to me.   

 

[ShawnSmith]

Quote:

Just for the record, my earlier recommendations were based on sound quality of the end result of the whole recording process.
 
I can't see how any of us, with the possible exception of LFF, are qualified to determine what proportion of the end result was due to the recording, production, mixing, mastering etc.
 
The only time most of us can comment specifically on the mastering is when comparing re-masters.

actually I think most remasters go well beyond simply remastering the album so even then it's hard to determine what role mastering had in the process.