[mamba315]

ZimmerX, compared to the flat C4, which frequency range(s) have been boosted on the C5 and by how much?

I'm getting a pair of MG6Pro customs for fun, but also interested in some Frogbeats as well. I'm just worried that neutral might be fatiguing. I don't know if my worries are valid or not. A little bass boost doesn't seem to offend me as long as it's also fast, tight, smooth, and fully extended.

Interesting that the C5 has more bass than C4 but less bass drivers (1 vs 2), while having double the drivers for mids and highs. Any comments about this and why it's so? What advantages are there when you have more than one BA driver playing any given frequency range? Higher SPL or lower distortion?

 

[wiinippongamer]

David, do you plan to use/accept digital 3D impressions of the ears aside traditional silicon molds?

 

[FrenchChemist]

mamba315, neutral just means no particular frequency is boosted or shelved, much like a TV set that faithfully reproduce the picture without adding colour filters, contrast boost or edge enhencement. I doubt many people would find such a TV set "fatiguing". In fact, this is a rather desirable feature for a TV set. And if you want to modify this neutral picture to correct an imperfect broadcast ou DVD, or just because that's the way you like your picture, there are always settings you can change. People tend to reason differently when it comes to audio but there is no reason to. If you like a particular flavor to your sound or want to temporary correct a badly mastered music, it's better to do so with proper EQ starting from a neutral sound instead of having colored sound for EVERYTHING you will ever listen to with colored HPs. I have LFF's Paradox and I can assure you they are neither boring nor fatiguing. Instead, they allow me to apreciate how well/bad the music was mastered

 

[mamba315]

I know what neutral means and why it's considered desirable. But not everyone seems to like ruler flat neutrality, and its not due to ignorance or lack of experience.

Every objectivist knows of Earl Geddes. He's spent his entire career studying psychoacoustics and applying his findings to audio. If you order a pair of his waveguide speakers, they will measure flat. However he has admitted that on his personal speakers he brings down the tweeter a decibel or two. Says it sounds better...

Awhile back on Audiogon I ran across some interesting discussion in an Ohm Walsh thread on this very issue as well, here are a few snippets that I found interesting.

"Newbee, don't confuse published "flat response" (which is usually measured anechoically) with flat in-room response. The former will, just as you note, almost always sound too bright. Truly flat in-room is also usually a touch bright for my taste. I actually prefer the gently falling in-room response of my Ohms (and my Verity P/E, for that matter) to really flat in-room response.

If you do not want flat, what do you want?

Output gently falling as frequency increases from app 100hz to 8 or 10khz, flat above that. Flat to gently rising below 100hz to the lowest limit of system response (app. 25hz in my case). Tricky to achieve without multiple and/or EQ'd subs.

Simply a personal preference. We're talking a couple a three db spread over just over 6 octaves (with something vaguely like a 2 db offset rising in the bottom 2 1/2 octaves) for the most "natural" sound in my room (and, actually, the other two rooms that I've measured extensively) to my ears. All of the listening rooms I've measured strike me as just a touch bright when response is perfectly flat - so I chalk this up to personal preference."

Anyways, is there any good software EQ out there that doesn't screw up the phase?

 

[HideousPride]

Quote:

I know what neutral means and why it's considered desirable. But not everyone seems to like ruler flat neutrality, and its not due to ignorance or lack of experience.

You're comparing apples to oranges, my friend. Speakers have to travel the distance of your room to reach your ears, whereas IEMs are already in your ears. The tweaking Mr. Geddes speaks of is to compensate for said distance, and the theory obviously does not apply in the same way to IEMs.
 
Mr Gedde's end goal, again, is to find the sweet spot where the music sounds ruler-flat to his ears. He is merely describing in his own opinion how to best tune speakers to reach that goal. That being the case, I think the expert "testament" you've brought into the discussion doesn't really hold up.

 
That being said, this is a thread for the Frogbeats, and not for lengthy arguments! I'm still waiting for David to send me the email stating he's received my impressions so I can throw my money at him.

 

[mamba315]

HideousPride, I've read your post several times and do not understand what you are trying to say. Regardless, my post was a little off topic so I won't pursue it.

I guess my real question would be: how can one be sure that the Frogbeats C4's are as flat as they're supposed to be? Test tones cannot tell you for sure due to the equal loudness curve. I'm guessing that LFF says they are because he may have experience with neutral studio monitors in perfectly treated studios. If I'm right, then speakers are the standard by which headphones are still judged. Is there another method that I'm missing?

I am not anti neutral. My active floorstanders measure very flat top to bottom until you reach their natural bass roll off. But my home isn't treated so the room ultimately changes things. I want to hear what perfectly neutral sounds like so I know where my preference lies.

If LFF or Frogbeats have any comment on these issues, I'm all ears.

 

[Poimandres]

David glad too see that the Frogbeats customs finally came to fruition. Even better is that from the review the 4 has stellar sq. How long will the discount last?

 

[fuzzy1969]

The whole 'neutral' thing makes things a bit complicated given the Psychoacoustics properties of how the human ear perceives what its hearing which is'nt flat and probably varies from person to person age differences etc. I am very interested in the C5 and how V shaped it is as i like my vocals. Time to sell my 535's and move into customs me thinks.

 

[fuzzy1969]

Quote:

ZimmerX, compared to the flat C4, which frequency range(s) have been boosted on the C5 and by how much?
I'm getting a pair of MG6Pro customs for fun, but also interested in some Frogbeats as well. I'm just worried that neutral might be fatiguing. I don't know if my worries are valid or not. A little bass boost doesn't seem to offend me as long as it's also fast, tight, smooth, and fully extended.
Interesting that the C5 has more bass than C4 but less bass drivers (1 vs 2), while having double the drivers for mids and highs. Any comments about this and why it's so? What advantages are there when you have more than one BA driver playing any given frequency range? Higher SPL or lower distortion?

Its quite interesting on the point of the c5 having less drivers for bass but i suspect one of the mid range drivers is really bass/midrange driver being part of each but not fully each, the shure 535 have dual bass and one tweeter so where does its well known mid range come from? maybe ZimmerX could clarify?

 

[Metalboy]

Its quite interesting on the point of the c5 having less drivers for bass but i suspect one of the mid range drivers is really bass/midrange driver being part of each but not fully each, the shure 535 have dual bass and one tweeter so where does its well known mid range come from? maybe ZimmerX could clarify?

The c5 should have a bigger bassdriver.

 

[fuzzy1969]

I don't really go much for graphs as there don't really tell you how something sounds, but if you can find the frequency response for a given headphone and compare it to this graph the closer the match the more neutral the headphone is supposed to be although some people will disagree. I tend to sit on the fence on this subject.

 

[zowki]

Hi LFF, is the Paradox as neutral as the C4?

 

[mamba315]

I asked almost 2 weeks ago how the C4 and Paradox compared, but it seems that neither LFF nor the Frogbeats owner can be bothered to answer any more questions in this thread.

 

[FlySweep]

I asked almost 2 weeks ago how the C4 and Paradox compared, but it seems that neither LFF nor the Frogbeats owner can be bothered to answer any more questions in this thread.

 
I'm not sure if David from FrogBeats has heard the Paradox.. also, MOT rules might prevent LFF from commenting/comparing his own 'product' vs a competitor or HF sponsor.
 
That being said.. LFF has said the C4 sounds like the 'custom IEM version' of his Paradox.  Honestly, I wouldn't worry about if the C4 is 'neutral' enough.. cause I'm reasonably confident it will be.

 

[mamba315]

My wording was bad. I asked LFF about the C4 vs Paradox, and asked David some questions about the C4 vs C5 at the top of this page. Its been nothing but crickets since. Maybe PM would be more effective but I think asking questions on an open forum is more beneficial for the public in general. Usually there are more people wondering the exact same things.