[zenpunk]

Hi Zimmer,
Very tempted as I am in the UK, but I have few questions if you don't mind...
Are those shells hollow or filled?
Have you got any universal version to try? or frequency response chart to get an idea of their sound signatures?
Any upgrade path/discount if I realise the C4 is not to my taste and would prefer to get the C5?
What's your/people building those CIEM backgrounds?
Thanks

 

[goodvibes]

Quote:

@ zimmerx
 
Also, how do you expect to cope with the surge of demand? I mean, say if now you are taking 20 orders a day but in two weeks time this increases to 100- how does this impact turnover time??

LOL, I bet that got his juices flowing. These are tempting.

 

[CantScareMe]

He had the decency to provide an honest response, which is nice. I was just asking as at the minute I haven't the time to go through with the process of getting a custom, but in a few months time I probably will have.

 

[ZimmerX]

Quote:

Hi Zimmer,
Very tempted as I am in the UK, but I have few questions if you don't mind...
Are those shells hollow or filled?
Have you got any universal version to try? or frequency response chart to get an idea of their sound signatures?
Any upgrade path/discount if I realise the C4 is not to my taste and would prefer to get the C5?
What's your/people building those CIEM backgrounds?
Thanks

The shells are filled.
 
We don't have a universal version to try unfortunately, and do not know as of right now if there will be that option in the near future. Frequency response charts are a really iffy issue here. We tend not to give them out because judgement calls are made on a chart that doesn't tell you enough about the CIEM. It won't give you an accurate description of what you will hear when you put them in your ears, so we tend to leave them out of conversation to avoid confusion over what someone is saying on the signature and what someone "thinks" the graph is saying. As we stated before - the C4 is a neutral, completely flat sound signature, whilst the C3/5 have a mid bass hump and are slightly bassier. The C5 has got better lows than the C4. They are all pretty "neutral" in general terms, but the C4 was designed as a studio monitor whilst we concentrated on making the 3 and 5 more musical ones for general listening. However everything is subjective and there will be people that much prefer listening to the C4 over the 3/5 for general listening due to their preferences. I personally have the C5 and I don't get tired of listening to them, but then again my comparisons with the C4 have been in testing stages only.
 
As for upgrade paths/discounts, let me check what can be done with this. 
 
We've got a few highly skilled audiologists and engineers who've been in the business for a good number of years working on the CIEMs. Over 10 years experience between them and we teamed up with them just after New Year to set up the Frogbeats CIEM division. We spent about 5 months establishing the sonic qualities that were desired from the CIEMs and what models we were wanting to create. I personally, along with a few other audio enthusiasts tested several different variations of each model to establish what was the best sounding/best version of each and then got on with it! The C5 was quite a unique experience in testing because the armature configuration for that model was something we hadn't delved into before but wanted to try out due to the massive popularity of the ES5 and the sound that it produced. Very happy with the outcome, I must say. Big risks were taken and for now they have paid off and we should have more reviews to come soon!

 

[zenpunk]

Thanks for detailed answers. I understand your reticence about using frequency charts as  many people tend to read too much into those. I ve just got the Heir 4A.i, which is pretty close to perfect (the treble sparkle is slighlty overdone for my taste and imaging isn't as good as the PFE232) but sadly they become uncomfortable after few hours 

. I was going to try the IE800 next but your generous discount would make the C5 + impression about the same price 

 

[LaaG]

I'm tempted by these because it's a UK based company.
 
However, after reading the "review" which looks and sounds more like an advertisement (please don't take it the wrong way) and other comments by ZimmerX, I still have no idea how these CIEMs sound.
 
Supposedly it's neutral, but where on the scale? Etymotic neutral? Westone neutral? RE0 neutral?
 
Hows the bass quantity compared to other IEMs? "neutral" most of the time here is just a code word for "bass light".
 
As for the mids and vocals, are they louder/quieter/same volume as the instruments/backing track?
 
And the Highs on the C4s? Is it more of a DBA-02 kind of high or a TF10 style high? maybe neither? 
 
All earphones are coloured in one way or another, if they are indeed neutral, then it's gonna be a boring sound signature or sound analytical.
 
Sorry for being so critical, but before splashing out over half a grand on anything, I need to make sure they are right for me.
 
 
P.S: A question to ZimmerX. Should the CIEMs not fit properly or provide a good seal, what is your policy on refiting or reshelling etc.

 

[ZimmerX]

Quote:

I'm tempted by these because it's a UK based company.
 
However, after reading the "review" which looks and sounds more like an advertisement (please don't take it the wrong way) and other comments by ZimmerX, I still have no idea how these CIEMs sound.
 
Supposedly it's neutral, but where on the scale? Etymotic neutral? Westone neutral? RE0 neutral?
 
Hows the bass quantity compared to other IEMs? "neutral" most of the time here is just a code word for "bass light".
 
As for the mids and vocals, are they louder/quieter/same volume as the instruments/backing track?
 
And the Highs on the C4s? Is it more of a DBA-02 kind of high or a TF10 style high? maybe neither? 
 
All earphones are coloured in one way or another, if they are indeed neutral, then it's gonna be a boring sound signature or sound analytical.
 
Sorry for being so critical, but before splashing out over half a grand on anything, I need to make sure they are right for me.
 
 
P.S: A question to ZimmerX. Should the CIEMs not fit properly or provide a good seal, what is your policy on refiting or reshelling etc.

The reason as to why I have stayed away from making solid statements on how they sound is because I can only go by the test models that were tried initially and not a custom fit model (I can tell you how the C5 sounds, but then we go into the area of "is he advertising the company? or just being honest?" and frankly I'd rather not delve in that because all it does is cause problems and then people start calling others dishonest or biased. In addition to the fact that on HeadFi it would be seen as inappropriate for me todo so.
 
Those questions posed are best answered by LFF himself, so hopefully he can help you out there on all of them.
 
I also put in "neutral" in inverted commas because you precisely stated that if that word were taken literally then they would be very boring, so I leave the sound signature to be described better by LFF. If you feel he hasn't done that in the review (which is fair enough) then hopefully he'll give you a better idea of it.
 
As for the refit policy - it's 30 days from receiving the product.

 

[HideousPride]

Quote:

 
All earphones are coloured in one way or another, if they are indeed neutral, then it's gonna be a boring sound signature or sound analytical.

I must strongly disagree with this statement above. I believe it's one of those terms that is thrown around a bit too often to describe headphones that don't really deserve the term. As such, it's developed a connotation with the word "boring" as you've said, when it's anything but.
 
If we're talking about sound signature, then I prefer forward mids like on the Senn 598. I also like a touch more bass than neutrality for the most part. Before my recent purchases, I would not have considered a neutral headphone to be ideal for my tastes.
 
But I recently purchased the Heir Audio 4.Ai and it somewhat changed my views on neutral headphones/IEMs not being for me. Neutrality just makes it that much easier to tweak the sound to your preferences. It was great familiarizing myself with the earphones, because I could work from a neutral foundation to play with EQ settings for every genre of music until I found settings that suited my tastes on my Cowon J3.
 
LFF's Paradox was delivered a few days after that. Let me just say they are ruler flat to my ears, and are still a wonder to me. It's been a few weeks, and I have never even thought of touching the EQ settings when I'm using them. I can't envision tweaking the sound into becoming any better than it already is.
 
YMMV, but in my opinion, don't knock on neutrality.
 
---
 
Regarding the C4s, I had impressions done yesterday by an audiologist who owns a pair of her own CIEMs, so that was a neat experience. Am shipping them to Frogbeats today and am very much looking forward to hearing them.

 

[Rakan]

Quote:

I must strongly disagree with this statement above. I believe it's one of those terms that is thrown around a bit too often to describe headphones that don't really deserve the term. As such, it's developed a connotation with the word "boring" as you've said, when it's anything but.
 
If we're talking about sound signature, then I prefer forward mids like on the Senn 598. I also like a touch more bass than neutrality for the most part. Before my recent purchases, I would not have considered a neutral headphone to be ideal for my tastes.
 
But I recently purchased the Heir Audio 4.Ai and it somewhat changed my views on neutral headphones/IEMs not being for me. Neutrality just makes it that much easier to tweak the sound to your preferences. It was great familiarizing myself with the earphones, because I could work from a neutral foundation to play with EQ settings for every genre of music until I found settings that suited my tastes on my Cowon J3.
 
LFF's Paradox was delivered a few days after that. Let me just say they are ruler flat to my ears, and are still a wonder to me. It's been a few weeks, and I have never even thought of touching the EQ settings when I'm using them. I can't envision tweaking the sound into becoming any better than it already is.
 
YMMV, but in my opinion, don't knock on neutrality.
 
---
 
Regarding the C4s, I had impressions done yesterday by an audiologist who owns a pair of her own CIEMs, so that was a neat experience. Am shipping them to Frogbeats today and am very much looking forward to hearing them.

 
Same here ) , can't wait to get the C4

 

[LFF]

Quote:

I'm tempted by these because it's a UK based company.
 
However, after reading the "review" which looks and sounds more like an advertisement (please don't take it the wrong way) and other comments by ZimmerX, I still have no idea how these CIEMs sound.
 
Supposedly it's neutral, but where on the scale? Etymotic neutral? Westone neutral? RE0 neutral?
 
Hows the bass quantity compared to other IEMs? "neutral" most of the time here is just a code word for "bass light".
 
As for the mids and vocals, are they louder/quieter/same volume as the instruments/backing track?
 
And the Highs on the C4s? Is it more of a DBA-02 kind of high or a TF10 style high? maybe neither? 
 
All earphones are coloured in one way or another, if they are indeed neutral, then it's gonna be a boring sound signature or sound analytical.
 
Sorry for being so critical, but before splashing out over half a grand on anything, I need to make sure they are right for me.
 
 
P.S: A question to ZimmerX. Should the CIEMs not fit properly or provide a good seal, what is your policy on refiting or reshelling etc.

 
This is not an advertisement and I clearly stated in my review that these headphones sound neutral. If I didn't go more indepth or use more flowery, TAS or Stereophile approved "read between the lines" language it's because I don't have a need nor do I feel the need to use it.
 
People know me around here. They know what I do and they know I write honest reviews that strive to be accurate and forthcoming. Had David sent me a treble peaked monstrosity like [REDACTED] I would have said so and would not have held back any punches. The C4, as I received it, is the best IEM I have heard and I have heard a ton.
 
Also...what is Etymotic neutral? Westone neutral? I have never heard of this before and honestly saying there is a neutral scale based on name brands gave me a good chuckle.
 
Now...what does it mean when something is said to be neutral sounding?
 
Well to start, neutral sounding is definitely not one of the following:

1. Something up for a vote
2. Something according one's personal preferences
3. Something that has similar tonal balance to one's favorite headphone of the month
4. Or even something that sounds most like a live performance

 
Neutral sounding is simply something that measures flat - that is a flat frequency response. Audio professionals and even most experienced audiophiles know this. The only reason I would even bring this topic up is to set things straight here. You can verify this with tones and when music sounds flat it simply means that no particular frequency is over-emphasized over another. Again...this is nothing new.
 
Neutral does not mean bass light. It means flat. Again, I recommend you pick up those books I linked up above.
 
 
Quote:

As for the mids and vocals, are they louder/quieter/same volume as the instruments/backing track?

 
That has little to do with an IEM. Once again...I recommend you pick up those books. Much more music is contained in the mids than just the vocals. The instruments being louder/quieter than the vocals or main instrument has to do with the MIXING and MASTERING of the album...not the headphone/IEM.
 
 
Quote:

All earphones are coloured in one way or another, if they are indeed neutral, then it's gonna be a boring sound signature or sound analytical.

 
Some are more colored than others. Neutral is far from being analytical or boring. Neutral is right and it's what nature intended you hear. Sure, there are headphones which are very pleasing to listen to with certain genres that are brighter (HE-6 with classical) or darker (HD650 with rock or R&B) but this is tasteful coloration with very specific emphasis on certain frequencies.
 
 
Quote:

Sorry for being so critical, but before splashing out over half a grand on anything, I need to make sure they are right for me.

Completely understandable. It's a lot of money but I assure that it's money well spend.

 

[gnarlsagan]

Quote:

 

 
Thanks for clearing that up. Neutral is a word thrown around a lot and people don't always use it in the same way. I assume you're taking into account open ear diffuse field response when labeling the C4 neutral? I imagine then that the C4 sounds a lot like the ER4S? Thanks in advance for your clarification. It's just that I'm not sure if Etymotic's definition of neutral is the only one in use, and that is my current point of reference. 

 

[LFF]

Quote:

 
Thanks for clearing that up. Neutral is a word thrown around a lot and people don't always use it in the same way. I assume you're taking into account open ear diffuse field response when labeling the C4 neutral? I imagine then that the C4 sounds a lot like the ER4S? Thanks in advance for your clarification. It's just that I'm not sure if Etymotic's definition of neutral is the only one in use, and that is my current point of reference. 

Anytime!
 
I agree that neutral is thrown around too much and all too often in an improper way.

 

[mamba315]

Hi LFF, how would you compare these customs to the Paradox phones? Which has a smoother frequency response, better detail, and more musical engagement? Thanks!

 

[joashtzh]

Can anyone give input as to how the C4 compares with es5 and heir audio 8.a?

 

[ZimmerX]

Quote:

Can anyone give input as to how the C4 compares with es5 and heir audio 8. 

We tried to base the C5 model off the ES5 configuration rather than the C4, so we're hoping that once a review for the C5 is out that comparisons can be made between those two. The C4 has by default a slightly different signature to the ES5 from what I know of the ES5, and the C5 tends to come closer to it in sound signature.