[Shike]

 
Quote:

@ shike,
Why should I feel bad? Because my test is poor in your eyes? I find it amusing that you think it that way.

 
What credible industry would accept your test as sufficient?  List.
 

My test is not bad. Please be respectful and don't be personal.

 
What objective did it actually accomplish?  Did it remove any potential for bias at all?  How was it different from hooking up two amps amps at random out of box and plug between the two of them?
 
If it didn't accomplish any of these, how was it a "good" test.  Explain.
 

My test was aimed at telling which amp is subjectively better, blindly, even when amp x is a little louder.

 
There's no point in blind testing if it's identifiable due to lack of controls now is there?  Equally a blind test isn't setup for quantifiable difference, just whether one can hear them.
 

  did not even pay attendtion to tell which amp is louder or which is beta22.

 
So you admit that you didn't even pay attention to testing in your own test?  Why should we take it seriously at all then?   The idea of a test is there's some degree of control, which you admit you've gone out of your way to eliminate from the beginning.
 

 I said a little louder because 3db is perceived as significantly louder, while the 1-2 db more i gave to O2 in average may not even be audible.

 
1dB is seen as audible, so 2dB isn't going to be surprising to be audible at all. Equally your method of measuring loudness is too imprecise, the differences could have easily been larger based on the SPL meter and frequency used - assuming you used a test frequency.
 

Background noise can easily have a variation of 1-2 db.

 
I'm not even going to bother with this till the other flaws of your test are handled.
 

I challenge you to do a better test between beta22 and O2 and offer some objectively better results. Otherwise you are not provide any useful information here, other than personal attack. You have to build a beta22 though. No, I will not loan you mine.

 
I have level matched, and DBT'd, a Beta22 (and a M3, a Benchmark, and a handful of others).  I'm not the one claiming to hear a difference am I?  I realize I could be biased against hearing a difference, and as such it's the responsibility of those claiming to hear a difference to provide evidence if they want to be taken seriously.  Starting a thread saying "hey, I don't hear a difference" is only going to garner tin ear insults or others that say there shouldn't be a difference anyway.

 

[zzffnn]

^ Provide some neutral 3rd party proof that you have done what you said in your last paragraph. Nobody would believe that you even listened to a beta22 once without that proof. Let alone your comparison. You did not even specify how you did you test, so your test is "bad".

Also I was not trying to do a objective test by your definition. Again, i care less of what you think, as I did not do the test to make you happy. I did it to make myself happy. I provided the test info because someone asked me to specify; I do not care if anyone else is convinced or not.

People heard you and me already and they will take information that they consider as useful. I do not see that our debate will produce anything more useful than what have been stated. Take it to PM if you care to.

 

[mikeaj]

Shike, thanks for not being mad, but did I ever apologize for contributing to probably getting this thread kicked to the ghetto (SS)?  My bad, sorry, but I think by this point what's done is done.
 
 

^ Please go and buy said car and post some impression With photos here. I have no doubt that car would be super fast.
Note I said engineers HERE in this thread. Not all engineers. Some are good at explaining science better than others, and some are good at designing real audio products. Some can only offer assumptions based on theory and confuse people.

I'm pretty sure I'm not overreaching in thinking this is mostly directed at me, so...
 
I know my writing sucks, but I don't understand where the confusion is coming from.  Are you suggesting that there's purposeful obfuscation to confuse people, or incompetence?  Could you honestly identify which assumptions you think are based on theory?  I don't recall any other than those based on systems theory and linearity, but were there any inaccurate assumptions or leaps of faith made?  Is the theory wrong, being misapplied, being misunderstood, or what else?  Anybody else feel free to respond here.
 
I never read these pages until just now (and a quick skim reveals they're not amazing, but the intros are useful), but if anybody wants a quick primer or refresher, these might be relevant:
http://www.libinst.com/distortion_isolation_in_the_time.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_harmonic_distortion
 
If your own tests satisfy you, that's what matters most, and I mean that sincerely.  What matters most for enjoyment is probably to like the gear you own, no matter what the reason.  I don't think we need to go down the route of HydrogenAudio regarding requirements to back up every claim, but if anybody sticks something out, there's just some motivation to examine and integrate those claims with what we know.  No offense.

 

[Shike]

@mikeaj,
 
Seriously it's not a problem.  I expected this ending up here when I first posted the review, and was honestly surprised it stayed out of here as long as it did.
 
Quote:

^ Provide some neutral 3rd party proof that you have done what you said in your last paragraph. Nobody would believe that you even listened to a beta22 once without that proof. Let alone your comparison.

 
Can you do the same beyond a reasonable doubt?  I'm sorry, but with the internet to some extent you're either going to believe me or not.  I'm not going to harass friends to join Head-Fi, jump through hoops, or give out personal information just to appease you.  Regardless, I will ask you don't imply negative connotations of a persons character that may be construed as defamation, and furthermore do not derail this thread any longer with such attempts.
 
The only reason I'm responding to this is I see it as a public attack on my character, and as such deserved to be addressed.

 

[Shike]

So, how many people are interested in dropping an ODAC in the O2?  I'm starting to debate it more, but still hanging fire at this point in time.  Nw had a good April Fool's joke regarding it, but hope we get to see some more real news on it soon.