Return of the Sensaphonics 2X-S - Early comparisons to UE-10 Pro

[Big D]

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Originally Posted by random person Personally I agree with Big D (in this and all things! ) -- personal preferences notwithstanding, high-end rigs do not/should not require equalization.

Thanks for the support!!

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Originally Posted by random person Oh and please Big D and lindrone -- tell me which phone you prefer for classical music and why. See my prior post (the one with my wine analogy and wierd dream in it!)

This is just an early opinion but I find the UE-10 Pro better for a small number of instruments. Something like Moonlight Sonata sounds better to my ears on the UE-10 Pro than the 2X-S. However for orchestral music the 2X-S is sometimes better at giving that fuller sound a live performance gives. When I get my UE-10 Pro back I'll do some more detailed comparisons for you!

 

[lindrone]

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Originally Posted by PATB For example, if one likes Sennheisers, is that person more likely to prefer the UE sound or the Sensa sound?

I went over to iamdone's place to do a comparison with his HD650/Zu just for this purpose... he wanted to know which one sounds closer to the Sennheiser sound. The organic, musical quality of the 2X-S makes it better for those who's akin to Sennheiser's sound signature, although obviously, they're not exactly the same.

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What about for a Grado person? Just curious if this comparison can be simplified a little more.

I'll leave that for someone else. Tell you the truth, I don't personally have a perspective on what I like about Grado's sound. So it's really hard for me to draw comparisons. I understand what Grado does well, but I don't have any personal feeling towards it.


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Originally Posted by random person There is in fact an entire school of high-end audio dealers that completely reject using an equalizer.

This is indeed, very, very true.

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And yes I also think that one can prefer the sound of technically inferior phones. Lindrone, for example, prefers the UE5c over the UE10 even though he finds the UE10 to be technically superior. That seems fine to me.

LOL... Yeah, I didn't even think of this earlier, this is very similar to how Big D would like E2c over E5c.


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Oh and please Big D and lindrone -- tell me which phone you prefer for classical music and why. See my prior post (the one with my wine analogy and wierd dream in it!)

As you probably know by now, I like natural flow and musicality in my music. Which would push me to say that I like 2X-S with classical music. However, other than one's preference for detail or musicality, there's actually one point of the UE-10 that I felt very distracting from a "proper" classical experience.

Like I said before, UE-10's midrange is forward, thus giving you a sensation of compressed frontal soundstage. In classical music, soundstage is a critical part of the listening experience, and due to this soundstage compression, I don't think they're suited for that particular purpose, at least in a critical way. One can still love the detail that UE-10 provides with classical, but the soundstage is really distracting.

 

[lindrone]

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Originally Posted by Big D This is just an early opinion but I find the UE-10 Pro better for a small number of instruments. Something like Moonlight Sonata sounds better to my ears on the UE-10 Pro than the 2X-S. However for orchestral music the 2X-S is sometimes better at giving that fuller sound a live performance gives. When I get my UE-10 Pro back I'll do some more detailed comparisons for you!

This is probably true in accordance with my statement about staging as well. In concertoes, the compressed frontal soundstage won't bother you much at all. It's only apparent in orchestral music.

 

[Big D]

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Originally Posted by PATB Lindrone or Big D, getting back to the UE/Sensa comparison, is it possible to simplify the comparison for newbs like me in terms of full size cans? For example, if one likes Sennheisers, is that person more likely to prefer the UE sound or the Sensa sound? What about for a Grado person? Just curious if this comparison can be simplified a little more.

Sadly I only use canalphones. I've had the Shure E2, E3, E5 , Ety ER4, Sony EX-71 before. I don't use full sized cans as I live alone and can listen to speakers whenever I want. My canalphones are almost exclusively for portable use.

 

[Blitzula]

Lindrone, I remember you saying that you weren't a big fan of the HD-650 sound signature. But you also just said the 2X-S sounded closer to a Sennheiser. Can you elaborate?

I don't like the Sennheiser sound, I prefer Grados much more. Hopefully someone has a thought on whether the 2X-S or UE10 is better for a Grado fan....

 

[random person]

Thanks Big D and lindrone for your thoughts about classical.

Interestingly I love the UE5c for classical, but I do listen more to solo, trio, concerto-type music vs full orchestra. But, since mine are "humpless" (they have the notch filter in place -- collector's items!) there may not be the forward compression that lindrone experiences.

I have noticed that with big orchestral pieces -- let's say Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue, where there is that amazing SWELL to the music as it builds, you don't really get anywhere near the sensation of the power of the swell with these canalphones that you can with speakers. On the other hand, piano concertos are simply gorgeous with these -- rich, full, intense.

Really -- all you would-be custom canalphone buyers who are on the fence -- take the plunge. They are worth it!

 

[hackeron]

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Originally Posted by random person Well Hackeron as much as I would like to stay out of this debate I'm afraid I have to jump in. There is in fact an entire school of high-end audio dealers that completely reject using an equalizer.

Really? -- all the resellers of high end equipment here highly recommend an equalizer as an essencial tool to equalize speakers to room's acoustics.

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These are, of course, the kind of places that have you match an amp to the speaker setup to do paired comparisons, in order, with your reference music selections, in rooms that are set up for you with couch and speakers all set up to simulate your living room situation as closely as possible. You meet with them by appointment. They might serve you sherry and cheese and crackers as well. They will drive you home if you like, install everything, with a complete money-back guarantee. And they would cringe if you wanted an equalizer. The right amp, paired with with right speakers, in the right environment, should not *need* or require equalization.

I went to Harrods to see their high end setups (my friend was buying one), and they recommend the use of an equalizer, so I dont know what to tell you. They also offered to meet up and everything, but it was a 20k setup, my friend couldnt afford it, it was a fun listen none the less

Oh and the system was ofcourse in an isolated audio testing room with a couch and huge flat screen TV and they naturally said they will set up any combination in that room for us to listen to, it was kick ass

-- it was a 5.1 setup.

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Krell, for example, (certainly a high-end amp company!) does not include equalizers in its integrated amps

Why would an amp have an equalizer? -- most (all?) recievers dont have equalizers. If you want quality, it will always be a separate unit.

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and at their prices you wouldn't want to add one either. My Krell rig with my ridiculously expensive speakers (they were $12,000 for the pair -- such a deal!) sound delicious. The bassline could blow your brains out; yet classical is done so stunningly beautifully that it is simply gorgeous.

Well, then you dont want or need to equalize the speakers to the acoustics of your room, good for you. Sounds like a kick ass system though

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And yes I also think that one can prefer the sound of technically inferior phones. Lindrone, for example, prefers the UE5c over the UE10 even though he finds the UE10 to be technically superior. That seems fine to me. Otherwise we'd all just be heating up our credit cards to buy the most expensive systems out there, whether we liked them or not. (I've heard there's a million-dollar speaker system set up in a showroom near me. I feel certain they are technically better than my setup but I'm obviously NEVER going to audition them.)

Well exactly. If you're not willing to use an equalizer then you can find $50 headphones with a sound signature you like and say they sound better, thats why the sound signature isnt a factor at all for me and why headphone manufacturers dont put a flat frequency response on their priority list. Now if the decay is too fast or the sound is grainy or the bass is thin or the treble has artificial detail, there is nothing an equalizer can do. If the middle has a hump, or the bass is too much, or the highs are too quiet, those things can be fixed by the equalizer included in a large selection of portable players.

I dont understand this hostility towards the equalizer. Do you really not trust your ears that much to pick what sounds best?

 

[kugino]

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Originally Posted by hackeron By your logic if someone thinks 2 + 2 = 5 then fine, its his opinion, he cannot be wrong. I really cant understand how you can be so thick...

edited...i never should have taken the bait...

 

[vranswer]

I don't think it's hostility toward the equalizer. It's more like opposition to the Antagonist.

 

[hackeron]

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Originally Posted by Big D No-one can figure out what you are talking about because it is so ridiculous. I see it clearly now that if I read a Paul Graham essay I will suddenly see that the E5 are better sounding than the E2 and I will be cured of my "illness". Please don't post in this thread anymore unless it is about the 2X-S or UE-10 Pro. You are spoiling it for everyone else and hopefully heading towards a ban. If you have no respect for others then you deserve none yourself.

First of all, when you say "no-one", you mean the 4 people that replied. Second of all, I think you just might, give it a try, you may learn something: http://paulgraham.com/say.html

Lastly, dont threaten me. I've given my opinion just like you have.

 

[hackeron]

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Originally Posted by kugino opinions, however, are not true or false statements in the same way mathematical statements are. "BigD believes 2+2=5." if BigD really believes this, then the statement (that BigD believes 2+2=5) is TRUE! no one can claim that this is a false statement except BigD. now whether he is correct in his beliefs is up for debate. in this case, his belief is probably mistaken.

Right.

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now, what if BigD said, "i believe that salmon is better than steak." well, that BigD believes this is true...but the truth-value of the content of his belief is not the same as the mathematical statement above. we can certainly disagree with his choice, but there is no "objectively clear" reason to prefer one over the other. i personally like salmon, but my wife likes steak. are either one of us WRONG? hard to make a case for wrongness here.

Why not? -- if he tried to state that salmon is better than steak, then he would be ignored as its apples and oranges. If he said grade-C salmon is better than freshly cought salmon, now thats a whole different story. If someone is interested in salmons, he'll step up and disagree. Its only common sense.

With your logic you might as well have said going to concerts is better than listening to headphones. -- apples and oranges.

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how about this statement: "i prefer michaeangelo's paintings over da vinci's." they are both renaissance masters. they are both italian. they are both two of the greatest artists we've ever seen...is my opinion wrong? no, i TRULY do prefer michaelangelo over da vinci. do others, though? some do and some don't. and we can debate about why we think the way we do...but is one opinion wrong because that side doesn't know enough about art? we're not debating which artist had the better technique for a certain style of painting...we're just discussing which artist we prefer!

Here it gets more interesting, but it is possible to assess which paintings are infact better: http://paulgraham.com/taste.html

PS: I went to see Raphael's exhibition in the National Gallery in London recently -- there were a few of michaeangelo's and da vinci's paintings. Truly sensational. Highly recommend visiting.

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and subjectivity is only for the UNEDUCATED? that's very piss-poor of you to say that...i have a PhD in philosophy and biology and actually believe that OBJECTIVITY is difficult to defend the more you learn about things. before you call all of us in this forum "non-intellectuals," you should probably take a course in elementary logic to see where your arguments fail. please stay off these forums if all you're going to do is insult people and their opinions.

By subjectivity I mean statements like "beauty to the eyes of the beholder". All related matter can be analized objectively, including art. You can define moderator standards and work out what makes beauty beaty rather than simply saying a lame statement like, well, he just preferes it. It is actually easier when it comes to sound.

What you are refering to is facts, and facts change. Thats why information must never be static. Following that logic, nothing is fact -- but thats philosophical.

 

[lindrone]

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Originally Posted by random person But, since mine are "humpless" (they have the notch filter in place -- collector's items!) there may not be the forward compression that lindrone experiences.

Actually, the compressed frontal soundstage is only on the UE-10 Pro, it's not really there on the UE5c. Even though UE5c's soundstage is generally smaller, it is definitely more balanced out than the UE-10 Pro.


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Originally Posted by Blitzula Lindrone, I remember you saying that you weren't a big fan of the HD-650 sound signature. But you also just said the 2X-S sounded closer to a Sennheiser. Can you elaborate? I don't like the Sennheiser sound, I prefer Grados much more. Hopefully someone has a thought on whether the 2X-S or UE10 is better for a Grado fan....

I don't like Sennheiser because it's just way too laid back and too slow. The HD650 has a very warm and organic sound, but I don't feel the attack is fast enough, and the decay is too long, thus giving you a very smooth, but sometimes a little congested sound. Even though Zu cable will help HD650 a lot in getting a better attack and balance the sound spectrum, it still doesn't quite do it for me.

The attack of the 2X-S is much faster, and its decay has more texture and clarity, it doesn't drag on for as long as the HD650's decay. Overall the instrument separation and the speed is much better with 2X-S. Most obvious of all, is that the bass extension is deeper and more powerful. The sound signature is still organic, musical, but more neutral than the HD650. It is not overtly warm as I feel with the HD650.

However, 2X-S is still closer to HD650 than UE-10 Pro. UE-10 Pro has a even faster attack, and the general sound signature gets a little colder. In fact, UE-10 Pro sounds a lot more like the CD3000. It also does not have the decay that the CD3000 possesses. CD3000's fluidity in speed and transition allows it to maintain instrument separation in a relatively colder signature but still being musical. UE-10 Pro is definitely more analytical since it lacks that fluidity in between notes.

As far as comparison to Grados, I think Grado has a rather warm/neutral sound signature as well; not as warm as HD650, but definitely warmer than CD3000. I think Grado's speed and attack is still faster than 2X-S by a bit, but it's relatively close. However, as I said before, I really can't tell you one way or another without having another close comparison session. I was never enamoured with Grado's sound, so I have very little emotional connection to it.. hence very little memory of it except for the fact I didn't like it

I can only store so my in my brain before the RAM runs out!!!.. Memory leak!!!

 

[vranswer]

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Originally Posted by hackeron What you are refering to is facts, and facts change. Thats why information must never be static. Following that logic, nothing is fact -- but thats philosophical. Maybe concider a course in elementary physics.

Is this thread about Sensaphonics? Or do I have to break out my dissipating structures macro-physics notes to follow along?

 

[hackeron]

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Originally Posted by vranswer Is this thread about Sensaphonics? Or do I have to break out my dissipating structures macro-physics notes to follow along?

Sure, why not

-- lets make it interesting for a change.

 

[Blitzula]

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Originally Posted by lindrone I don't like Sennheiser because it's just way too laid back and too slow. The HD650 has a very warm and organic sound, but I don't feel the attack is fast enough, and the decay is too long, thus giving you a very smooth, but sometimes a little congested sound. Even though Zu cable will help HD650 a lot in getting a better attack and balance the sound spectrum, it still doesn't quite do it for me.

Your comments (down to the like/dislike) about the 650 and the Zu's effect on the sound mirror mine entirely. Nice to know someone is hearing the same thing you do. I suspect I'll feel similarly to you about the 2X-S' approach, and it will just be a matter of whether that sound is to my taste.

I'm planning to hear the 2X-S universals in a week or two (I've been waiting for a client to return them to the audioligist I'll use), so that should give me some more insight into the sound.