[wagninger]

Hi all,

Whenever I watch a more in depth review about DACs or amps, a lot of talking about certain components and what they do in the signal path goes over my head, and how certain measurements are to be interpreted (other than "more is better" compared to other devices).

Short of becoming an electrical engineer, what are some resources to help me get going? I am a trained audio engineer, but that was more about using the equipment to get the desired result, not building things from the ground up.

Cheers,
Andy

 

[SoundAndMotion]

Hi all,

Whenever I watch a more in depth review about DACs or amps, a lot of talking about certain components and what they do in the signal path goes over my head, and how certain measurements are to be interpreted (other than "more is better" compared to other devices).

Short of becoming an electrical engineer, what are some resources to help me get going? I am a trained audio engineer, but that was more about using the equipment to get the desired result, not building things from the ground up.

Cheers,
Andy

I'm not completely clear about your background knowledge or whether you're asking about DAC chips or the DAC within a complete system.

These may (or may not) help get you started:
Wiki in English or Deutsch

A really nice DSP book online, with the DAC chapter here (ADC and DAC).

Ask, if you have more specific questions.

 

[wagninger]

I'm not completely clear about your background knowledge or whether you're asking about DAC chips or the DAC within a complete system.

These may (or may not) help get you started:
Wiki in English or Deutsch

A really nice DSP book online, with the DAC chapter here (ADC and DAC).

Ask, if you have more specific questions.

Thanks! Looks like a lot to go over already, I didn’t even consider Wikipedia because it has a type of delivery of information that often doesn’t make it clear to me what’s actually important.

That DSP books could keep me busy for a bit

 

[SoundAndMotion]

Thanks! Looks like a lot to go over already, I didn’t even consider Wikipedia because it has a type of delivery of information that often doesn’t make it clear to me what’s actually important.

That DSP books could keep me busy for a bit

Gerne!
As I mentioned, further questions may better target and speed up your goals!

Also, I'm more of a reader than a video-watcher (my son is the reverse), so I neglected to mention Monty from Xiph who makes great videos! Others here probably know other nice resources... anyone?

 

[wagninger]

Danke danke

 

[VNandor]

If you are interested in audio measurements (stuff like frequency response, impulse response, linear distortion, harmonic distortion, nonlinear distortion, aliasing, jitter, quantization errors, dynamic range, etc...) you could try to take a course on "continuous (and discrete) time signals and systems". This is what provides the mathematical foundations behind the vast majority of audio measurements. I don't think you could get much out of a more formal course it if you don't already have a solid understanding of high school math. If you have the basics down, I think it could be possible to learn the necessary math along the way if you are motivated enough.

There's even a chapter called "linear sytems" in the DSP book. Reading through it could be a good way to gauge if you are interested in/capable to learn more about it.

 

[wagninger]

If you are interested in audio measurements (stuff like frequency response, impulse response, linear distortion, harmonic distortion, nonlinear distortion, aliasing, jitter, quantization errors, dynamic range, etc...) you could try to take a course on "continuous (and discrete) time signals and systems". This is what provides the mathematical foundations behind the vast majority of audio measurements. I don't think you could get much out of a more formal course it if you don't already have a solid understanding of high school math. If you have the basics down, I think it could be possible to learn the necessary math along the way if you are motivated enough.

There's even a chapter called "linear sytems" in the DSP book. Reading through it could be a good way to gauge if you are interested in/capable to learn more about it.

I never did well in math, but I also didn’t have anything that I could do with it… I think for this, I’ll have the grit to push through

 

[FunkyBassMan]

Hi all,

Whenever I watch a more in depth review about DACs or amps, a lot of talking about certain components and what they do in the signal path goes over my head, and how certain measurements are to be interpreted (other than "more is better" compared to other devices).

Short of becoming an electrical engineer, what are some resources to help me get going? I am a trained audio engineer, but that was more about using the equipment to get the desired result, not building things from the ground up.

Cheers,
Andy

This guy's lectures are super informative.

 

[gregorio]

Short of becoming an electrical engineer, what are some resources to help me get going? I am a trained audio engineer, but that was more about using the equipment to get the desired result, not building things from the ground up.

Actually, there’s nothing “short of becoming an electrical engineer” to get you going. In fact even being an electrical engineer won’t get you going because although DACs are relatively simple devices compared to a lot of modern digital technology, they’re still quite complex. Just the chips inside DACs are designed by big teams, with various sub-teams, comprising several different disciplines, not only electrical engineering. On top of that, there will be more teams/specialists involved when designing the DACs which contain those chips and lastly, those designs are proprietary so you’re not going to be privy to exactly how the DAC works unless you’re actually an employee of that company. Using Wikipedia and the resources provided above by others will give you a basic understanding, but I would add some of the standard text books on Digital Audio, and as a trained audio engineer, so will some of the pro-audio sites and manufacturer’s documentation (white papers for instance), such as Avid for example and Lavry also had some good materials.

However, you do have to be careful, there’s a lot of info out there which is effectively audiophile marketing BS, that will lead you up the garden path and is difficult to recognise as BS unless you already have a reasonable understanding. An example of this and an exception to the good advice already provided above by others is this one:

This guy's lectures are super informative.

Yep, “super informative“ if you want to be informed of audiophile marketing, EG. Misinformed! But it’s NOT informative if you want to be informed of the actual facts. To be fair, a lot of what Rob Watts asserts is factually correct/accurate but it’s invalidated by the occasional “lie of omission” and factually false assertion. This marketing appears to be based on the old adage that the best lies are those which adhere to the truth as much as possible, so quite sophisticated/advanced marketing BS (although unfortunately, there‘s an even more sophisticated audiophile marketing BS tactic) and it can be difficult to separate the fact from the fiction without considerable experience.

As a rule of thumb, ignore or at least take with a huge pinch of salt, any “factual” information disseminated by audiophile manufacturers! If you’re not sure what you’re seeing/hearing is factually accurate or just audiophile marketing BS, you can always ask here, the Avid (DUC) and *some* of the pro-audio forums are also a good place to ask.

G

 

[SoundAndMotion]

You are trying to derail yet another thread. Stop!

Actually, there’s nothing “short of becoming an electrical engineer” to get you going. In fact even being an electrical engineer won’t get you going ...

This is so ridiculous, even you contract yourself just a couple sentences later:

Using Wikipedia and the resources provided above by others will give you a basic understanding...

You don't think "getting going" starts with a basic understanding? You don't even think an EE has gotten going? Have you read the wiki article and the DSP book I linked?
If you had even looked at them, you'd know that one gains more than just a basic understanding with them, and although everyone learns differently and may not take to the info presented, certainly some people can "get going" with them.

Quit treating every thread as a battleground for you to fight.

 

[castleofargh]

Breath, relax, don't insult people on the forum; voilà! It's a better day already.

OP, Watts has very good knowledge about DACs, obviously, and him communicating is both good and of course something he does with a purpose. I think he's a good source of information, and he might even reply to your questions in his own thread, which is pretty cool IMO. I think the only generic warning would be to not accept his statements about audibility or about subjective impressions caused by something in general. He does not excel in that area at all, and can even casually say truly absurd things about what levels of anything can have an audible impact. That much is established and well known, so the warning from gregorio is valid at least for subjective perception. For the rest, I admit to usually not knowing enough to tell if he's correct or not, I think he's rock solid on the technical side, but that's just my overall feeling.

Here's another person in a fairly similar situation to Watts, so the same things could be said about his motivation and truthfulness. It's not new, but I learned a bunch and got mighty impressed when it came out, and thought you might be interested.

 

[Ryokan]

Breath, relax, don't insult people on the forum; voilà! It's a better day already.

Where's the fun in that?

 

[wagninger]

Thank you guys for the input, please don’t fight over my knowledge or lack thereof

Let’s say this, I would like to look at a PCB and understand the components in the signal path, how certain designs look and why they might be a good choice or not, and have a basic understanding of what certain designs need to perform well.

Looking at measurements, I would like to know how relevant they are to my use case if at all, and what conclusions to draw from how the devices are built.

Thanks for all the great resources, I’m otherwise only moving to another country right now and starting a business, so not much going on they will keep me busy for a while!

 

[gregorio]

You are trying to derail yet another thread. Stop!

I’m not trying to derail this or “another thread”. So you “Stop”!

You don't think "getting going" starts with a basic understanding? You don't even think an EE has gotten going?

Not if he’s already a trained audio engineer because he would already have at least a basic understanding of digital audio. An no, an electrical engineer will not necessarily have any specialist knowledge of clocking circuitry, chip design, DSP/Firmware programming, etc.!

Let’s say this, I would like to look at a PCB and understand the components in the signal path, how certain designs look and why they might be a good choice or not, and have a basic understanding of what certain designs need to perform well.

Looking at a PCB and understanding the components isn’t necessarily going to tell you much. It will tell you about the power supply, input and output signals/ports but most of the signal processing occurs within the DAC chips. The technical documentation supplied by the DAC chip manufacturers is usually quite comprehensive in terms of all the pin connections, formats and specs of signal inputs and outputs, and of whatever programmable options it has/supports but they‘re typically (and understandably) very light on the exact details of what the chips are actually doing.

G

 

[bfreedma]

Thank you guys for the input, please don’t fight over my knowledge or lack thereof

Let’s say this, I would like to look at a PCB and understand the components in the signal path, how certain designs look and why they might be a good choice or not, and have a basic understanding of what certain designs need to perform well.

Looking at measurements, I would like to know how relevant they are to my use case if at all, and what conclusions to draw from how the devices are built.

Thanks for all the great resources, I’m otherwise only moving to another country right now and starting a business, so not much going on they will keep me busy for a while!

The DAC chip manufacturers are pretty good about releasing detailed design info. Pick one of the datasheet/product briefs for a DAC chip listed here to get an idea of what's available. This isn't the whole picture obviously, but good detail on core design

https://www.esstech.com/products-overview/digital-to-analog-converters/sabre-audiophile-dacs/