[gloco]

Quote:

Originally posted by Flasken Being european I feel I need to contribute to this thread. In my eyes Duncan is VERY right.. I believe that if a war would start, it would start in europe. Also, "the war on terror" has nothing to do with a WAR. In the 2nd world war every single person, including civilians, faced death, supression and poorness everyday. At least that was how the danish people felt when we were under German invasion. In this thread some of you sound like you're saying that USA took care of everything during WW2. Like you took all the hits, made all the sacrifices. That is also partly true. And let me tell you, danes LOVE americans for helping us. Yes, you saved us. But I'll be damned if we weren't the ones who had the hardest time. And then you say that the reason we don't stand 100% behind you in this "war", is that we don't know how it feels?? And what is it that you feel that we don't? Let me tell you: Anger. And then let me tell you what Europeans felt and still feel after 11/9: Fear. Tremendous fear of war! Yes, you might not have noticed, but Europeans are afraid of war! And I think we have plenty good reasons to be so...

Thanks for that insight Flasken. I think Americans tend to be more gung ho and ready to go and attack, but even people here are a little reserved regarding going into war with Iraq with the implication of many allies not supporting the US military.

Do danes feel that the war will spill over to Europe?

 

[kerelybonto]

Flasken, you're European? (I assumed with the drinking thing that you were American.)

I acknowledged Europeans' 'fear' of war, as you put it, in my first post. I understand it. It's the same kind of thing Tuberoller has been describing based on his experiences in uniform. But it doesn't make for good foreign policy -- it basically reduces your worldview to wishful thinking and destroys your ability to do anything effective.

This kind of thinking exists in the US, too. Take Powell and all the other military brass and political leaders affected by the 'Vietnam Syndrome,' or whatever you want to call it. No one wants to do anything for fear of the worst possible scenario. But you know what that does? -- it guarantees a bad outcome in each of the many, many instances when something good could have been done.

kerelybonto

 

[grancasa]

I have been thinking about the small black objects I saw falling from the 2nd tower on a Tuesday morning one year ago today, and the people streaming passed me in the streets, ash and blood mixed together in their hair like a thick paste. I hope we can all take a moment some time today to pause and pay our respects. Thousands of lives were affected by the terrorist attacks, and on today of all days I think the focus should be on them, and not issues of war.

 

[Jeff Guidry]

Which was exactly my point at the beginning of the thread. But when that war drum starts beating, it gets hard to hear anything else...

 

[M Rael]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Guidry But when that war drum starts beating, it gets hard to hear anything else...

I'm sorry if you have that problem. I certainly dont have a problem 'hearing' all the feelings I went through a year ago today. As I got ready to go to work that day I started hearing reports on NPR about something out of the ordinary at the WTC, and then a bit later while at work someone asked me if I knew that the WTC had both collapsed. It was still mid morning but I instantly packed my tools up and headed straight back home to see what the **** was happening (that was my internal attitude at the time.. shock and anger.) Getting home, it only took a few moments for the video to start pouring in showing the airliners hitting the towers.. the news about the Pentagon.. the flight that crashed in Penn. Anger gave way to a deep sadness about the losses in this attack. In fact I walked around in a funk for about 3 weeks. Nothing seemed normal or fun. We had all been hurt and it wasnt something you could just shake off in a day.

Then one day I saw a lecture on cable given by Victor Davis Hanson, an author, and it had an amazing effect on my outlook and confidence in our future; the future of the west. My weeks of walking around sad started to give way to a restless energy that wanted to remind everyone I knew that western civilization was good, powerful, and strong, and that no terrorist attack could ever change that. If we were attacked we would fight back, and we would prevail no matter what the cost in dollars or soldiers. You see, I felt it in my bones too- even though I'm not young- that we had been targeted 'as a culture' and I was willing to fight for it. No Islamic bastards were going to dictate lifestyle to me or anyone else I know. So sadness gave way to, 'yeah, you knocked the towers down, but you know what? **** you!'

...............

A year gone by and America made me proud, yet again, to be an American. The troops that acted on all of our behalf in going to chew up the Taliban, etc. And the resolve our government has in making America safe from such horrors happening again. Sadness in itself is just part of a larger picture. None of us will ever forget the sadness of a year ago, and its incredibly ignorant to think any of us ever would. How could anyone forget the emotional impact of those days- forgetting isnt even an option.

 

[Flasken]

Quote:

Originally posted by gloco Do danes feel that the war will spill over to Europe?

Like Duncan said, a nuclear bomb in Iraq doesn't have the capacity to reach USA. But it can hit Europe.

When USA bombed Hiroshima it stopped the war. If a war against Iraq should involve parts of Europe perhaps Iraq would believe dropping a Nuke in Paris would have the same effect USA's Hiroshima bomb had?

Hold on now, let me tell you about the "if". While Americans tend to be extremely positive, Europeans are the exact opposite. Extremely pessimistic. (for the americans, some danes would exchange the "positive" with "naive", but not me. I'm just trying to explain to you how we think over here.)

Finally, if you claim to know the way europeans consider the idea of possible war(pessimistically) then you should stop trying to explain to us why we should think differently. We just don't feel as safe as you do over on your large continent. Perhaps it is because we are not huge countries with the worlds largest army? I don't know. But please, quit telling us we are losers for not immidiately helping you out with that war of yours!!!


edit: Also, try to stop thinking "Europe" and instead try thinking "A bunch of small countries with different languages"... It's just that sometimes you define Europe just as much a "Unit" as America is....

 

[DanG]

Today at 9:55 am the church bells on campus started ringing to commemorate the events that happened about one year and thirty minutes earlier. It was a pointless and empty memorial for me, totally devoid of meaning.

Then I looked across the science quad, as we call it, and saw the freshman dorm where I lived last year. Then I remembered how, walking through the basement on my way to class, a group of other frosh were standing or sitting in front of the TV, glued to it as though the Martians had landed in Central Park.

I asked what was going on without looking at the TV. After someone said that the WTC had been attacked, I looked at the TV. About ten seconds later the second plane flew into the towers.

I think it's going to be hard for any of us Americans to forget where we were when we heard about the news or saw the events unfold in person or on TV. On the one hand we feel rightly that we can't wallow in our grief, that we must act on what happened. But then again, we're just civilians, we don't give the orders. Maybe it is just best, for now, to reflect on the implications and on what happened, and leave the action to those whom we elected to act.

 

[Mr.PD]

If you want to see what the Arab world thinks of all this go here Keep in mind that this news site is censored by their government.

 

[fredpb]

I would like to make a comment about Europes attitude that they don't want war.

War? NATO considers attack on one as an attack on all. I don't want war, did not want war when I was in the military, but I was ready. If Denmark or The Netherlands were attacked by the Soviets, that would have been an attack on the USA and WE would have responded. Not even our continent and we would have died for Europe.

Now the Europeans don't want to "fight America's 'war'". Because they may get attacked. What the *****? Don't you think 3000 people being killed 9/11/2001 was an ATTACK ON THE USA????? AN ATTACK ON ONE IS AN ATTACK ON ALL. Now the Europeans are apparently afraid something might happen to THEM if they support us. Talk about backing out of an agreement!
Give me a break! Somehow, Saddam, if allowed to continue, will have missiles and weapons to go on them. Does Europe really think somehow if he gets this THEY will be spared??????? Yeah, right. Like Hitler spared them after he invaded Poland.

Hitler's war machine did not appear over night. It was built up over many years, and many countries, who later faced it, let them do it. History again is repeating itself. And the SAME groups are crying "let him be so he won't hurt us". Darn. I find this incredible. No, STUPID.

America did not move to save the world's ass until December 7, 1941, when Pearl Harbor was attacked. Then many Americans had to die to recover Europe. No, USA was not totally innocent, as it allowed Japan to get power too.

Saddam moved into Kuwait. Same old stuff. This time the USA, with Allies, had to bleed to get him out. Not as much, but we did have to save the Arab asses this time.

America was attacked last year. I agree with Bush, you are either for us or against us.

If Europe will not support the USA. And we can't terminate IRAQ and Al Quaida. Then the USA should pull out of NATO, and let them fend for themselves (they WON'T like that). Economically, Most Favored Nations status for all countries that don't help should be revoked. Let Germany sell it's Volkswagens to Iraq.


At the same time. America should rearm totally, and build it's missle defense shield. And make some new missles, and aim them at the Arab world. We get nuked, they get nuked. A list of cities in the Arab world should be listed as targets...if America every get's nuked by a terrorist, by by big cities over there. That will give them incentive to help us curb terrorism.
An extreme measure, but if the world turns it's back on us, fine, look friggin' out.

 

[lini]

Maybe some of you haven't asked themselves the right questions, yet. These usually are: Who profits? Where does the money flow? Or maybe you should try to get more alternative information like on www.whatreallyhappened.com - might not be the truth there, either, but it's at least another aspect.

All in all, the more liberal minded in Europe are either unsure, whether the whole truth is known, yet, or whether a war with Iraq might not be the beginning of WWIII. Or they might even think they know enough of the truth, already, and decide that it might be better not to help the U.S. in what they would consider as a resource war, then...

Musing greetings from San Jose!

Manfred / Lini

 

[fredpb]

Quote:

Originally posted by lini Maybe some of you haven't asked themselves the right questions, yet. These usually are: Who profits? Where does the money flow? Or maybe you should try to get more alternative information like on www.whatreallyhappened.com - might not be the truth there, either, but it's at least another aspect. All in all, the more liberal minded in Europe are either unsure, whether the whole truth is known, yet, or whether a war with Iraq might not be the beginning of WWIII. Or they might even think they know enough of the truth, already, and decide that it might be better not to help the U.S. in what they would consider as a resource war, then... Musing greetings from San Jose! Manfred / Lini

Actually, the money for the terrorist operations was funnelled through Germany.

Euromusings are grease to get out of obligations.

Again, an attack on one member of NATO is an attack on all members. Apparently when 2800 Americans die, it is not considered an attack?

Apparently, now that obligations now must be met, it is no longer convenient for member nations to meed treaties.
Best case, stupidity, worst case, cowardice.

 

[DanG]

Fred, there was -- and still is -- European support for the campaign against the perpetrators of the attack of 9/11. The war against Iraq is not directly tied to it, though there have been allegations of Al Qaeda cells operating and training in Iraq with Hussein's approval. The arguments for attacking Iraq have had more to do with the threat of unilateral Iraqi operations against the United States and its allies (mainly Israel). It should also be noted that Churchill objected against the blind eye turned on Germany after it had invaded German-speaking parts of sovereign nations -- not so much the blind eye turned against the building of weapons and military vehicles.

I don't think Bush is saying everyone is either "with us or against us" on the Iraq issue but on the war on terrorism. Our war on Iraq really is quite isolated from the war on Al Qaeda, even if dismantling Saddam's regime might uncover a number of Al Qaeda cells. It's also very unlikely that Bin Laden or his top lieutenants are in Iraq.

 

[Anders]

I want to express my participation for the victims of the 9/11. And also my grief of all of the consequencies for so many others, relatives, ordinary US citizens, US and UN soldiers and innocent Afghans who have been killed in the war. And all others who are alive but have suffered.

I don't like the polarisation of the world that emerges out of this, that doesn't necessarily mean to be "soft" on terrorists to use the US expression. The problem is rather that the military solution becomes so predominant at the expense of other political, social and economic problems that must be solved if we don't want to recreate new terrorists all the time (oppression, poverty, possible environmetal catastophies etc). I think this is a major difference between the US and European positions (which is an oversimplifications because of internal differencies. Remember that Europe is not a federation, EU is a rather loose union of member states with different languages and cultures, and there are a number of countries that not yet are members of the union.

I hate Saddam and his regime for what they have done and do. But is a war a realistic way or the best way. It is very hard to predict the consequences in the Arab world and it could be a starting point for uprisings, conflicts, terrorism and further wars. Some points in the discussion seem most as speculations and rumors, as nuclear threats agains Europe which are highly unlikely, especially Paris as France has much stronger nuclear weapons than Saddam ever will get.
In these pre-war times I think we have to be very cautious about all these rumours and unverified news that comes in the media. In some cases it is only for selling more copies, in others it may be false information that is planted to influence the opinion.
If Saddam really has the nuclear potential or other weapons for mass destruction, it is hard to understand how persons like Powell just would act like cowards in the present circumstances.
I don't have that information and it is therefore hard to form an opinion for or against a war. But I am yet suspicious . I remember very well that the war in Yugoslavia (the internal wars, not the US and UN intervention) was preceded by propaganda campains by power groups in the different republics of Yugoslavia.

 

[Dev]

After I seen remembrance of 9/11 by TV I've feel my shock is reinforce again. I don't understand how it tragedy may possible until now, my mind is not believe in it. It's like a nightmare...
Even so far away of USA and viewing TV reports, and one year later I feel very shoked, sorrow and bitterest taste...

I am so sorry.

 

[fredpb]

One shipment of the aluminum "canisters" needed to create weapons grade uranium or plutonium has been stopped, that is verified. But whether or not other shipments have been successfully obtained by Iraq is not known.

If Saddam is not making weapons of mass destruction, what does he need these materials for? Why does he not comply with UN Weapons inspections? Could he have something to hide? DUH!

Colon Powell helped stop the invasion of Iraq during Desert Storm.
Before Saddam started causing trouble for Kuwait, he was supported by the USA, and people like Powell. It's not just Saddam in Iraq, it's also many high ranking officers in his military that Powell knows about.

As for calling Powell a coward, nah. That statement is just retaliation for other statements. That's obvious. I guess people don't like it when people realize that not honoring a treaty out of fear for themselves, well, is called cowardice. Truth hurts.

Of course not all are pacifists, across the pond. The military is just as capable as the USArmed forces, and ready to act. The problem is the liberal forces in government and the loud whiners that don't want involvement, unless it is to their advantage.

To me, it is obvious that Bush is going to act, if necessary alone.
If American troops have to go and die alone to save the ass of many nations in the area, as well as our own, well, many won't think well of those who don't support the USA. And I am sure they will support economic and social withdrawal from those we no longer can trust.

Uh oh. I just realized that my statements will not go well with Team Sennheiser.

To think I will listen to Beethoven and Mahler with my cowardly headphones! I will have to listen to my von Karajan, with tears of dismay in my eyes!

I will have to burn my slides of Europe, and have shock therapy to remove 10 years of memories from my brain.... Well. I least I will still have some Scotch.