[fredpb]

Quote:

Originally posted by edstrelow Nevertheless wars are easy to start and hard to stop and their consequences are imponderable. Witness Viernam. America went in with a good intention, to stop North Viernamese aggression, and finally ended up propping up a corrupt and undemocratic regime, with unwilling, conscripted US soldiers. It lost the hearts and minds of its own people, never got the South Vietnamese onside and failed miserably to its great cost and domestic discord. Very simplistic an not totally correct view of that war. - FPB Then consider Afghanistan. We still cannot locate Osama Bin Laden, who didn't even have an army backing him up. So lets not overestimate our military power. He did have a whole government to back him. The Taliban. The USA did not do most of the fighting, the Northern Alliance did. - FPB These lessons hould be considered very seriously before acting. We could be in there for a very long time. the war may spread to other regions and we would certainly provoke new terrorist acts against us. Wake up. What provoked 9/11??? You think we should base our national policies on acts of terror? You actually think that there will be no more terrorist attacks unless "provoked"???? Dream on! -- FPB The puported rationale, of preventing further terrorism looks false given the lack of serious evidence that Iraq had anyhting to do with 9/11. On the other hand, the Saudis, who had everything to do with 9/11 are free to go about their business. The desire of the USA is not about passed "proved" association of Iraq and 9/11 (and if you think there is not, you are again dreaming). It is about future threats. The pacifists allowed Hitler to do his thing creating WWII. Now we have a chance to prevent history from repeating itself...allowing a madman time to act. The Saudis' are playing both ends. But remember, one of Bin Ladens peeves is American military installations on "Holy grounds of Islam", in Saudi Arabia. These are there with the Saudi's permission. - FPB SoI can see why many allies wonder about our motives and rationality. Not really. They just don't want to be targets themselves. They lived under the USA Umbrella during the Cold War. They got their asses saved by the USA in WWII (or kicked). Now they want to deny the USA the defense of it's territory and people. One way all the way. That's the mentality that got Hitler a place in history. -FPB

 

[Mr.PD]

Quote:

Originally posted by DanG It would become mired in politics of self-incrimination and perpetual guilt to the point where it could never act. Wars have consequences, grave consequences... not the least of which is that civilians in the enemy's country do get hurt even though they're not all against you. But to be afraid that some people might die is to be mortally afraid of war. We should be disgusted with war, but we should not be afraid of it. Sometimes it's all we have to let us survive. And if you don't think about how you are going to survive, who will?

Mired in politics of self-incrimination and perpetual guilt. I think we are half way to that point now. Consider Berkley,or Bill Clinton's comments on 9/11, and the whimpering of most of the bleeding heart liberals that are trying to take over our country. That is what breeds comments like this one Quote:

Let's remember our own fear before it turned into anger. Let's remember our own vulnerability before we put up shields. Let's remember who we really are, not what we want the world to think of us.

I know a lot of people felt fear and vulnerability, those are the people that have fallen for the liberal lie, the same people that would trade liberty for security, and are.

Don't be afraid that someone may die in the fight for freedom, be afraid that more people will die in the surrender of freedom.

 

[M Rael]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Guidry Let's remember our own fear before it turned into anger. Let's remember our own vulnerability...

Thank you Richard Gere.
No I'll tell you what I'll remember instead: I'll remember the thought of strangers sitting in airline seats and being jolted out of their routine by terrorists who flashed box cutters and grabbed a stewardess and then slashed her throat (you see- the sight of a woman with her throat cut is supposed to instill fear and terror.) And I'll remember how, as those remaining passengers made cell phone calls to their families and discovered what was happening in NYC, they determined to act against the armed hijackers no matter what the cost. I'll always remember the man that asked the cell phone operator to say the Lords Prayer with him and pass on to his family and children that he loved them very much, and then, as the time for action had come he was heard to say, 'lets roll!'

Minutes later they were all dead, and whats more they saw their own deaths approaching at several hundred miles an hour. It was the ground rushing at them. But they were men, and they were americans, and they were going to stop the hijackers or die trying. I'll remember Flight 93 for a long, long time. What would you do in the same situation Richard? Would you try to make a terrible situation ten times worse by reminding everyone how they were all about to get squished like insects against the hard earth and 'wouldnt it be better if we wait and see what will happen before we act rashly against the hijackers?'

We're still in the middle of this war man, its not over yet.

 

[Jeff Guidry]

I do not see for a moment how you would imply that I would not defend myself against attack.

I challenge you to find one word in anything I have said so far that would indicate that I am a pacifist.

The only thing I am challenging is the mindless beating of the war drum.

Let's talk about the people who were on the planes that hit the WTC and the Pentagon. Were they pacifists? Richard Gere's, to use your term? Do you condemn them as weak-kneed liberals who preferred death to defending themselves? Of course not, because they were not aware of the danger they were in. If they did, I am certain they would have defended themselves and plunged the planes into the Atlantic, if they could.

I have not questioned the presence of military forces in Afghanistan, because there is sufficient evidence to indicate that the Taliban were helping Al Qaeda plot against the US. My friend Howard is in Afghanistan. I sent him a box of sunflower seeds and dried pineapple, because the serviceman in Afghanistan rarely get any fruit. He is part of an engineering batallion, and I am worried because twice now he has encountered ordnance that should have killed him, but it didn't. And NOT ONCE have I ever questioned the reasons or validity of why he is there. I believe in what he is doing, and I believe in what our government is doing in Afghanistan to combat terrorism.

What I am questioning is the concept of living by the sword. This 'war' against Iraq is a poor attempt to try to more firmly control the Middle East, at a time when we should be uniting with other countries to contain the floodgates of violence that are sure to come.

It is quite easy for you and others to say what you would do. But the bombs aren't going off in your neighborhood. You aren't smelling death everyday. You don't have to deal with the real horror of war.

 

[M Rael]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Guidry But the bombs aren't going off in your neighborhood. You aren't smelling death everyday. You don't have to deal with the real horror of war.

Thats all true.

None of that was happening in NYC either, until 9/11 of last year. On 9/11 of last year, explosions, horror, and the stench of death were brought to this country from anti-american religious based fanatics with origins in the middle east. No it didnt happen in my neighborhood, but it happened in the neighborhoods of at least a couple of head-fiers I could name. War was declared by that attack. Get it? Its not a so-called war, or 'war' in quotes. Its a war. Period.

True its a very messy and complicated situation what with the enemy spread out, in hiding, and trying to use terror tactics all the time. But its a war none the less. There might not be a kind of ultimate victory like in other wars the US has fought, but that doesnt mean we are not to fight!

 

[DanG]

Good points Mark, Fred, Mr.PD. I agree that we have gotten to a point where educated fools are preaching European politics to us. But I think we need to remember that those people aren't the majority of the country.

Here on Williams College campus, a predominantly intellectual community, at first glance you'd think it is a run-of-the-mill liberal institution. Our administration makes cheesy empty statements about how everyone is equal and inane ******** like that. At peace rallies you here some idiot start crying and yell out "what about the children? What about the poor little Afghan children?" A group of liberals last year started hanging up posters calling Israel a fascist state.

But guess where all the conservatives are -- or most of them, anyway? They're "in the closet" -- further in than most gays. I don't hide my political orientation because I'm not ashamed of it, and I pay my full $33,000 a year and I'm not going to hide who and what I am. But if I were to count the people who are conservatives but don't openly admit it, I'm sure at least a third of the 2,500 students would be in that number.

If you look at working-class America and Americans in the mid-west, they often fall for socialist promises of the free lunch. But at heart they don't seem to have the same sort of over-thinking double-guessing attitude that liberal intellectual America has. At heart they judge situations with common sense.

Common sense is what's going to get us through this. Common sense says that in war, not only does the enemy die, but the American boys far, far away die too. Common sense also tells us that if we don't have the American boys far, far away then we'll have the Arab bombs close, close at hand.

Al Gore may have been one not to over-think (if he thinks at all) but to run opinion polls and focus groups until he was blue. Bush goes by common sense, it seems, and common sense has to tell you that even if other people who don't share your concerns disagree, sometimes the right thing to do isn't what those people say.

 

[wab]

Would you people please stop this crap about Europeans!? It's clear that most of you have no idea what's going on here. Some of the posts in this thread make me want to throw up.

BTW. I'd take Richard Gere over Sylvester Stallone anytime.

 

[DanG]

It's clear what's going on -- I'm not talking about all Europeans, I'm talking about the state of European politics and the prevailing European attitudes.

 

[Mr.PD]

I do not wish to "bash" Europeans. I will admit that what I know of European polititcs I got from US media. And, considering the US media's lack of integrity, I could have really bad information here.

As for living by the sword. I think that all creatures live by the sword so to speak. Nature is very violent, kill or be killed. People despite their high aspirations are the same way. I doubt that it will ever change. I don't think it should change.

I firmly believe that we as a society need the input of all people. Without those that question "living by the sword" our society would easily break down into a mob mentality. Does that make sense? People are extreme by nature, we need extremes in both directions by a minority of people in order to maintain a middle ground by the whole of the people. Therefore I am glad that Jeff questions the war. I do not mean to imply that Jeff would not fight if need be, he seems to want to make sure that there is a need. Up until Jimmy Carter made his statement the other day, I thought we should stay out of Iraq.

 

[kerelybonto]

wab, unfortunately it's rather easy to laugh at the current European conception of international affairs. In the past sixty years Europe has been lulled into a mindset of can't-we-all-just-get-along, largely due to its backstage presence in the Cold War, when American forces guaranteed its security. The attitude is understandable given the continent's prior history, of course, but it doesn't fit the reality of the world.

Take Chirac and Shroeder's common position on the Iraq situation: basically, "fighting is bad; we won't fight." Well, okay, fine, but someone has to. Now, the French have a long history of being uncooperative and Germans will probably be perpetually afflicted by the pacifist bug, but no one else in Europe feels any differently ... except Tony Blair, of course, but his position is diametrically opposed to the people he's supposed to represent.

Perhaps the biggest obstacle here is the emphasis on stability held by Western politicians, diplomats, and theorists. (Americans too -- they just place a greater emphasis on security.) Personally, I think there's quite a bit that could be changed in this world to make it a more livable place. It really is somewhat strange the United States, relatively the most dominate power of its era, is the one nation that does very little to actively resculpt the world.

kerelybonto

 

[fredpb]

First, Flight 93. The three flights that hit the WTC and Pentagon were victims. They did not understand what was going on.
Flight 93 learned what was going on. That transformed them into a plane full of victims, to a plane full of HEROS. They knew the outcome of doing nothing. They new the outcome of fighting back. They fought back. That is why plane hijackings probably will not work for the terrorists anymore. Some Americans a just ready for such a confrontation again. Terrorists on an American airliner know what will happed if they try that again.

Bush and his administration have tremendous resources at their disposal. They have not used them well in the past. Now they are trying too. Reason? WTC bombing hit "big money". Big money is more important that you or me. The Pentagon attack hit the politicians. Flight 93 was probably going for the White House or Capitol. That hits the politicians home. That is why they are acting. They were targets.

Times have again changed. Now many must unit to fight cowardly terrorists and their organizations. Sitting back and doing things to appease terrorists, or taking a "peacenik" stance will not stop these people. They will always find some excuse to attack USA and allies. The only way to deal with them is as Bush is doing, with a big stick.

This is also an enlightening period. While we want to stop Iraq, Russia wants to help them. So much for being friends. Another part of the war, and it IS war, is economic. Those who won't support us, like perhaps Russia or China, should have the economic plug pulled out. Like China. Move all the consumer factories proving the USA with cheap stuff out. Buying "friends" does not help. Both China and Russia have many missles aimed at us. Friends don't do that.

I am not an ignorant "hawk". I don't like armchair pacifists who let others, like me, do their dirty work. There are a lot of American deaths in Afganistan.....these guys did the dirty work of the free world.....including Europe. I spent many years in the military, government, intelligence, and EUROPE ( I lived there for 10 years). Unless you take an active, forceful, sometimes brutal stance against the new wave of terrorists, many innocents will die in USA and other areas of the world.

As far as "Europe" goes. The larger and more forceful the powers against terrorism, the shorter the age of terrorist, and less acts of terror. America saved Europes ass in two world wars, and covered their ass during the Cold War. If they don't support us, they are just sheep deserving to be slaughtered, again.

My words are harsh. But I don't want 9/11 to happen again with YOU as a victim, no matter who you are, or where you are.

If I was not old, or disabled, I would seek a way to join the fight.
Now all I can do is watch, pray, and tell others.

 

[Braver]

Quote:

Originally posted by wab Would you people please stop this crap about Europeans!? It's clear that most of you have no idea what's going on here. Some of the posts in this thread make me want to throw up. BTW. I'd take Richard Gere over Sylvester Stallone anytime.

indeed. I'm bailing out, this thread makes me sick.

 

[fredpb]

Quote:

Originally posted by Braver indeed. I'm bailing out, this thread makes me sick.

Reality sucks doesn't it?

Apparently you can afford your opinions because, as I have said, others will do your dirty work for you.


Enjoy the free ride.

********* Edited later ************

My apologies if I have offended anyone by my posts. But I still stand by them.

 

[TimSchirmer]

Quote:

Originally posted by DanG Good points Mark, Fred, Mr.PD. I agree that we have gotten to a point where educated fools are preaching European politics to us. But I think we need to remember that those people aren't the majority of the country. Here on Williams College campus, a predominantly intellectual community, at first glance you'd think it is a run-of-the-mill liberal institution. Our administration makes cheesy empty statements about how everyone is equal and inane ******** like that. At peace rallies you here some idiot start crying and yell out "what about the children? What about the poor little Afghan children?" A group of liberals last year started hanging up posters calling Israel a fascist state. But guess where all the conservatives are -- or most of them, anyway? They're "in the closet" -- further in than most gays. I don't hide my political orientation because I'm not ashamed of it, and I pay my full $33,000 a year and I'm not going to hide who and what I am. But if I were to count the people who are conservatives but don't openly admit it, I'm sure at least a third of the 2,500 students would be in that number. If you look at working-class America and Americans in the mid-west, they often fall for socialist promises of the free lunch. But at heart they don't seem to have the same sort of over-thinking double-guessing attitude that liberal intellectual America has. At heart they judge situations with common sense. Common sense is what's going to get us through this. Common sense says that in war, not only does the enemy die, but the American boys far, far away die too. Common sense also tells us that if we don't have the American boys far, far away then we'll have the Arab bombs close, close at hand. Al Gore may have been one not to over-think (if he thinks at all) but to run opinion polls and focus groups until he was blue. Bush goes by common sense, it seems, and common sense has to tell you that even if other people who don't share your concerns disagree, sometimes the right thing to do isn't what those people say.

I don't really have any political affiliations, but this is true about conservatives. If gore was president, USA would commence the liberal ass-kissing policy in the middle east. Hell, he'd probabaly be playing golf with saddam at camp david right now. I'm a bit sick of all of the recent 9/11 propaganda, but dan brings up a good point.

 

[TimSchirmer]

speaking of this, there is going to be a pinko antiwar march at my school, and everyone is supposed to wear black.... (i wear black everyday). Anyone know where I can pick up one of those "nuke da bastards" T shirts? The brightest white color is preferable.