R2R RIP or Resurrection?

[2leftears]

In my opinion music shouldn't be marketed like shampoo. That's too cynical for cultural products and it also leads to the situation where already big artists can afford much bigger marketing compared to smaller artists. Instead, (good) music should be promoted and advocated by people who have taste, understanding and knowledge about music.

My comment below:

Spoiler: Off-Topic

Well, I try! . And that's also why I suggested people seek out these new budding artists.

But just writing good music and putting it out there for people to discover isn't enough unfortunately (at least not if you hope to grow a sustainable fan-base). In an ideal world it would be, but this isn't an ideal world.

Marketing can take many forms, it doesn't have to be marketing like shampoo . I meant some artists refuse to help themselves get noticed. Maybe some just like to write music but fear the engagement with an audience of listeners & the media. E.g., as stupefying as the YouTube comment section may be, even letting your listeners know that the comments left on the MVs are appreciated helps, especially if they decide to make YouTube their main outlet for their productions. Or the odd interview here and there would help.

That engagement is also a form of marketing, and is what I meant when I said some artists suck at their own marketing. Right or wrong, behaving like an evasive introverted enigma when you only have a hundred or so people following your music isn't productive, no matter how good the music is. But that is also why I said some deserve some exposure nonetheless because we can't guess at the reasons for why they act the way they do; it may be just laziness or disinterest, but for others it may be simply shyness or even a personality disorder, and for some artists their music is simply a form of dealing with their own past issues and demons. Thus I try and promote the artists I like best I can, but it isn't alway effective, especially if their music is a bit 'out there' and doesn't appeal on a first listen.

 

[gregorio]

A lot of the time in places like Head-Fi SS and ASR, I get the vibe of “(insert here) isn’t better than an Apple dongle, so don’t buy it and if you have it you shouldn’t enjoy it, get rid of it and get an Apple dongle instead”.

I don’t know that much about ASR but here, I don’t know anyone who has that “vibe”. If someone likes the idea of an R2R DAC or just prefers the visual appearance of an expensive DAC, cable, amp or whatever, fine, I have no problem with that and I don’t think anyone else here does. I’ve certainly bought expensive things that don’t necessarily perform as well as something cheaper just because of looks, feel or simply having something expensive.

I have a Tag Heuer watch, it cost about three times what my Apple watch cost, has far less functionality and its basic function of telling the time is not as accurate but I enjoy it and that’s fine. There’s no problem with that at all, there would be a problem if I claimed it did actually tell the time more accurately, that it inherently told the time better, that the time it indicated was somehow more vivid, on point or some other prosaic description, state those who disagree must have poorer eyesight, suggest others should try it to enjoy these benefits too and that they should trust their eyes and ignore measurements, despite the fact that telling the time is a measurement!

G

 

[JamoBroGuy]

I don’t know that much about ASR but here, I don’t know anyone who has that “vibe”.

This place was a bad example, my bad. I mostly meant ASR. Those guys absolutely lose their minds over inaudible differences that show up on measurements and seem to not really respect people who don’t use or enjoy what they deem as the “best”. From my experience, at least.

If someone likes the idea of an R2R DAC or just prefers the visual appearance of an expensive DAC, cable, amp or whatever, fine, I have no problem with that and I don’t think anyone else here does. I’ve certainly bought expensive things that don’t necessarily perform as well as something cheaper just because of looks, feel or simply having something expensive.

Exactly.

I have a Tag Heuer watch, it cost about three times what my Apple watch cost, has far less functionality and its basic function of telling the time is not as accurate but I enjoy it and that’s fine. There’s no problem with that at all, there would be a problem if I claimed it did actually tell the time more accurately, that it inherently told the time better, that the time it indicated was somehow more vivid, on point or some other prosaic description, state those who disagree must have poorer eyesight, suggest others should try it to enjoy these benefits too and that they should trust their eyes and ignore measurements, despite the fact that telling the time is a measurement!

Excellent analogy.

I trust my eyes and use the sun to tell the time. Even in the summer, when it’s light outside for much longer, and on cloudy days where I can’t even see the sun. Who cares what measurements say?

 

[gregorio]

I trust my eyes and use the sun to tell the time. Even in the summer, when it’s light outside for much longer. Who cares what measurements say?

Exactly, science doesn’t know everything and an atomic clock has no idea what time feels like and tells us nothing about looking at the sun!
G

 

[Diet Kokaine]

Wake me up when a 3D holographic soundstage, lifelike timbres, layered mids, textured bass etc show up on a graph.
Like I said earlier.... if you like graphs, get a chip DAC. (Cheaper the better, so you can feel arrogantly smart on audio science forums)
If you like music however, get a good quality R2R DAC.

 

[Derivative]

that’s why it’s called a DAC rather than a DMC (Digital to Music Converter).

Found the name of my DAC if I ever decide to market one

 

[MohawkUS]

The argument is endless because we all hear it differently. The real move to make is to compare for yourself, this is where the used market comes into play allowing one to buy/sell with minimal losses. Buying new and taking the depreciation hit really should be held off on until you are confident in what you like, as tempting as new products and their marketing may be.

On SD v R2R I'm a flip-flopper dependent on my other gear. NOS R2R can have the most resolving transient speed(perfect impulse response in measurements) but usually falls behind in phase and ALL frequency domain charts.
I can't stand oversampling DACs of either type with planar drivers but miss the crisp clarity of modern DS with dynamics. I couldn't tell you if I need that perfect impulse to enjoy planars, if I'm covering up a driver resonance or flaw, or I just don't like complete accuracy. The point is that your preferences may shift with different components in the chain too.

 

[peterinvan]

It's the same stuff taken by different ends. The original DS concept is 1bit with very high sample rate(oversampled inside the DAC), so the linearity is great, but there is an enormous amount of noise to move and filter. It works, but limiting everything to 1 bit doesn't feel like the best option. We could work on 2 axes, and we deliberately remove one, then scramble to "noise shape" the consequence of that choice(like with DSD).

R2R has discrete resistors to output voltages corresponding to each bit( each following bit needing an output of half the voltage of the previous one). So long as you don't fall for extreme choices that are objectively bad on purpose, like non-oversampling or ineffective low pass filters(if there is one at all), it also works. The main issue this time is to match all the resistors as precisely as possible, otherwise linearity sucks and the resulting errors are correlated to the bits which is not something desirable(although I'm sure someone, somewhere argues that it is. Up is down and good is bad).

Now, the very common delta sigma chip nowadays doesn't use any of those pigheaded extreme designs. They use delta sigma, and a few bits(depends on the brand, but let's say between 3 and 6). That way they avoid the most extreme noise issues of one bit everything, and also mitigate the linearity issues by not having to match anything huge like 16 or even 24 bit. To me, that's the common sense, problem-solving middle of the road choice that most engineers would probably pick when facing the same questions. I feel like DACs were solved long ago, but that way they are even more solved.
So obviously the market is getting creative. Many chips now have a bunch of silly filter and oversampling choices, in case you are allergic to good things that simply work great. Some are also back to working in true 1bit like in the old days we should not try to go back to, some can simulate the issues of a filterless NOS DAC, hurray!!!! The future has plenty of room for unnecessary choices.

I have old ears.
I use OS mode on my K11R2R because I hear better isolation and instrument placements, as well as vocals presented more clearly. For a Photoshop analogy, it’s like adding a bit of sharpening. Photographers know that it is easy to “oversharpen” and ruin an image. I feel FiiO have done a good implementation of OS.

 

[castleofargh]

NOS R2R can have the most resolving transient speed(perfect impulse response in measurements)

This is a fallacious concept. Here are 2 clear facts:
1/ A perfect impulse response requires infinite bandwidth.
2/ Music can be reproduced accurately through digital media only if the signal is properly band limited(see sampling theorem).

There is this false idea that if an impulse response looks as much as possible like a Dirac pulse, then it's near perfect, but a proper band limited Dirac pulse should not look like a Dirac pulse. The math and the impulse response tell us so. Marketing is a hell of a propaganda machine.

 

[danadam]

and if you have it you shouldn’t enjoy it, get rid of it and get an Apple dongle instead”.

I don't get such vibe, neither here nor on ASR. What I often notice though, is that people who say that the vibe is like that, also made some dubious claims earlier, about sound of DACs, sound of hi-res, etc., and their claims got challenged. And they didn't like it.

I mostly meant ASR. Those guys absolutely lose their minds over inaudible differences that show up on measurements

Huh? So according to you they say "get an Apple dongle" but also they "lose their minds over inaudible differences"? Something doesn't add up.

 

[JamoBroGuy]

I don't get such vibe, neither here nor on ASR. What I often notice though, is that people who say that the vibe is like that, also made some dubious claims earlier, about sound of DACs, sound of hi-res, etc., and their claims got challenged. And they didn't like it.


Huh? So according to you they say "get an Apple dongle" but also they "lose their minds over inaudible differences"? Something doesn't add up.

Sorry, wording has never been my strong suit. I’ve always sucked at it. Let me try to explain it better.

From my experience browsing ASR, people put a lot of emphasis on differences with DACs and amps that show up on measurements but aren’t audible whatsoever. For example, people complain about something not having enough SINAD or whatever. That’s just from my experience, though. Also, I don’t make dubious claims that fly in the face of science (I try not to at least, I’m not exactly the brightest).

About the Apple dongle thing, I’ll be honest, I don’t know where exactly that came from. I just thought of the first thing that came to mind. I was mostly just trying to make a point. As I said, I suck at wording.

Sorry for the confusion. Hopefully you understand what I mean now. Please don’t mistake me for some gullible audiophile who believes in snake oil, I try my hardest not to be like that.

 

[sygnus21]

I'm glad I don't listen to ASR or put a premium plots and charts (tech specs). Fact is I've never bought gear solely based on tech specs.

Currently enjoying my Denafrips Pontus 15th R2R DAC matched with Denafrips Class A Artemis headphone amp, with both a pair of Sennheiser HD800 S and Hifiman HE1000SE headphones. Warm fun-loving system with lots of detail, staging, and liveliness with weighty notes. Very happy.

 

[bigshot]

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/do-solid-state-amplifiers-sound-the-same.973009/page-6#post-18197660

One of my best replies just below.

 

[evanft]

Exactly, science doesn’t know everything and an atomic clock has no idea what time feels like and tells us nothing about looking at the sun!
G

How can measurements even properly tell us the soundstage of the sun?

 

[gregorio]

Wake me up when a 3D holographic soundstage, lifelike timbres, layered mids, textured bass etc show up on a graph.

Why, when measuring the performance of a DAC, would anyone in their right mind instead try to measure what’s inside your head and then make a graph of whatever BS you’ve made-up/imagined? Here’s the closest thing to a graph of that I could find:

Do yourself and us a favour and stay asleep!

Like I said earlier.... if you like graphs, get a chip DAC.

Just repeating what you “said earlier”, when it was BS the first time and called out as such, is called trolling!

If you like music however, get a good quality R2R DAC.

You mean; if you DON’T like music! If you really did like music, then you’d buy a decent cheap DS DAC and some more recordings but if instead of music you like looking at outdated/superseded technology, paying a higher price for less performance and/or being suckered by audiophile marketing, then get a R2R DAC!

The argument is endless because we all hear it differently.

The argument is endless because audiophiles can’t understand the simple, obvious fact that when we’re measuring the performance of a DAC, then we’re measuring a DAC, not how you or anyone else hears. Why is it only audiophiles? For example, why don’t say car enthusiasts argue endlessly that BHP, 0-100kph times, top speed and various other objective car performance measurements are all useless because we all drive differently?

NOS R2R can have the most resolving transient speed(perfect impulse response in measurements) but usually falls behind in phase and ALL frequency domain charts.

No, NOS R2R does NOT have the most “resolving transient speed”, it has the same resolving transient speed as DS DACs. So, you have equal resolving transient speed but significantly inferior performance in other respects, frequency response for example. Why would anyone in their right mind pay more for poorer performance? … The answer is, they are not in their right mind, they’ve been suckered by marketing into believing that “perfect impulse response” has something to do with musical transient speed performance, when it doesn’t. Transients are not and cannot possibly be Dirac impulses! What defines the speed of transients with musical instruments is the speed at which say a plucked string propagates an oscillating wave through the air, plus the mechanical speed at which a microphone diaphragm can respond to that air movement (sound wave). You appear to misunderstand or have been mislead to believe that an impulse response is a measurement of transient speed, it is not. A Dirac impulse test on a DAC is the scientific/engineering test used to determine the type of filter employed by that DAC, not a transient speed test.

I can't stand oversampling DACs of either type with planar drivers but miss the crisp clarity of modern DS with dynamics.

So, you can’t stand oversampling DACs but you miss the crisp clarity of modern DS (oversampling) DACs?

I'm glad I don't listen to ASR or put a premium plots and charts (tech specs). Fact is I've never bought gear solely based on tech specs.

Pretty much no one buys gear “solely based on tech specs” but then the plots and charts published on ASR are NOT tech specs! An unfortunate reoccurring theme in the audiophile community seems to be a serious misunderstanding of what measurements are; what is being measured, what the measurements tell us (and what they don’t tell us) and what tech specs are.

Currently enjoying my Denafrips Pontus 15th R2R DAC … Warm fun-loving system with lots of detail, staging, and liveliness with weighty notes. Very happy.

I’m not sure what your system is doing but your R2R DAC is an electronic device, it has no concept of “fun” and cannot be “fun-loving”, it reproduces no more (and potentially less) detail than a cheap DS DAC, it cannot be “lively” and it also has no concept of notes or weight (and notes can’t have “weight” anyway). In addition, it should not get warm or, if you’re talking about frequency response rather than actual temperature, do you have any reliable evidence that your Denafrips has such poor fidelity? Incidentally, in case you somehow weren’t aware, audiophile marketing materials/videos are not reliable evidence, they’re pretty much the opposite.

G