[cel4145]

I will try that- does the cable quality really matter that much on such a short run (0.5m), I will need to get a 3.5mm to RCA cable and don't want to get something expensive, nor do I want to limit the potential of my equipment

There are decent inexpensive cables that work fine. Cables make the least amount of difference, if any at all. Worry about that later on after you've had a chance to research the topic and get comfortable with your equipment.
 
 

i'm running it from the laptops built in optical output- in terms of 'quality of the optical output', is there any difference or are they all built the same?
 
honestly I hear a difference between usb and optical, on both the fiio and the audioengine, whether it's a volume difference maybe, but it sounds brighter. I did some reading (a little bit of knowledge is a bad thing), and it suggested that many dac's can sound better over spdif rather than usb, especially if the usb segment of the dac is cheap (and it's cheaper to impliment a good spdif input so SPDIF is usually great, where as usb can be hit or miss), and usb can be susceptible to interference. Apparantly I also need to look for something with asyncronous clocks- then it will sound as good as spdif.

Ultimately, if sounds better to you, then it sounds better to you and that's all that matters regardless of the reason (real or imagined)

 

[firefly89]

Quote:

 
 
Ultimately, if sounds better to you, then it sounds better to you and that's all that matters regardless of the reason (real or imagined)

 
 
I really think it does- USB sounds flat, and plain, SPDIF sounds brighter and, just better- maybe i'm just a glutton for punishment as I really want to not have to use SPDIF, so of course my self destrucitve brain is going to tell me spdif is better! and I did read that SPDIF is better- a double blind test is needed, but who do I trust to do it for me and not judge me as a weirdo with too much time to spare
 
in my reading I did find numerous people saying that the audioengine d1 (and many many other dacs) sound better over spdif, and that anything round my price bracket will usually sound better over spdif
i'll post up some links and quotes
 
 
I've also noticed that with the audio engine d1 I prefer the sound of 44.1khz to 96khz, again 44.1 sounds more dynamic and 96khz sounds too smooth- from my reading this seems like it's not placebo, as the higher sample rates do smooth out treble and some fidelity is lost in the re-sampling process- so I guess I just prefer a more dirty sound! Also most music is in 44.1, so switching to a higher sample rate introduces extra processing, 44.1 should be bit perfect 
 
edit: testing with 96khz flac files, I noticed the fiio sounded much better set to 96khz (extra detail)- so from this I can conclude that: 1) either some devices are better at higher sample rates 2) or you should match the sampling frequency to your source music  
 

Maybe this will help. Lets assume you are starting with a 44.1/16 source file (most common). If audio midi is set to 44.1/16 (and the playing software is not changing anything) then you get "bit perfect" 44.1/16 on the optical out. If you change audio midi to 96/16 it will interpolate to 96 then send that out. Obviously what is getting sent out is no longer a "bit perfect" reproduction of the data. But you might like it better. Many external dacs resample their input. So if you are playing a 44.1 file, with audio midi set to 96, you might end up with two resamplings (one in ]core audio, the other in your dac). If you set audio midi to 24 bits it will just pad with zeros, and send the extras zeros out. No harm, no foul, you are not changing any bits, you are just adding a few extra zeros.

I use iTunes for playback. Most of my files are 44.1/16. I set audio midi to 44.1/24. This forcesiTunes to convert everything to 44.1/24. The reason I do this is it makes the volume control and "sound check" useful - itunes pads to 24 bits, so when you reduce volume there are bits to spare. On the rare occasion I have something higher than 44.1, and I think it matters, I'll stop itunes - reset audio midi to the native file resolution - then restart itunes. But I rarely bother.

 
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1219475/why-does-96khz-24bit-sound-different-than-44-1khz-16bit-on-my-mini
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=39606
 
 
also connected the d1 to my e12 via line out (rca cables) and I still think the headphone output sounds better, fuller, richer, deeper bass (maybe I like double amping?)- but then the quality of my line out cable comes into question (super cheap 3.5mm to rca, vs the 3.5mm to 3.5mm cable which is good quality)
 
 
basically I like the extra detail of the audioengine, (especially for games), but also like the extra thickness and less refined listen from the crappy u3's dirty DAC output, maybe I have cheap tastes, I like cheap cake more than I like expensive cake. I'm not in a huge rush to send them back so i'll give it a week or two, I have 30 days so should be no problem (just better make sure not to damage them!)
 
really wish I didn't have so many devices to compare, it is actually annoying me how many devices I have plugged in- I just want to make a decision but my massive OCD means I have to analyse each one to the full extent- i'm not sure OCD and audiophilia is a good or safe combination for someone like me ha ha
 
 
 
 
my path to this point is as such:
 
akg k81dj's plugged into laptop > wanted usb interface to save having headphones sticking out of side of computer (less cables attached to laptop)  
 
bought cheap external sound card, £7- terrible SQ > started PC gaming, heard about dolby headphone processing > took back cheap sound card, purchased dolby headphone compatible card (xonar u3)  
 
dissapointed with effect of dolby headphone I stumbled upon madlustenvy's gaming headphone guide > started posting to head-fi > bought k701 at a steal based on madlustenvy;s recommendation > also bought amp based on recommendation 
 
games sound great > try out some music > music sounds great > never one to be happy or satisfied with what i've got I wonder "could things sound greater'?
 
curious about audio fidelity I purchased a DAC (fiio e17 and audioengine d1) to compare against my other equipment > can't hear massive differences, but can hear some differences, seems different every time I listen > still none the wiser, more clueless than ever and now i'm back to having a cable sticking out the side of my laptop > might just flip a coin
 
 
 
 
one more thing:
i've read that the D1 is a better DAC than the schitt modi, and the modi only really makes sense paired with the magni- I like how they look, but I'd like to keep the e12 for use as a portable amp. I've also read that the d1 dac (ak something?) is better than the fiio dac (wolfson)
 
 
I'm not sure i'm making any sense now, it's time to go outside...
 
with the right google searches you can find someone who also believes as you do- I trust my ears, but unlike everything else that I can compare (I do love to compare) I can't easily switch back and forth or compare side by side- introducing massive variables (e.g. volume) and rendering any comparison ultimately flawed
 
i'm starting to like the extra detail from the audioengine d1 and it is certainly noticable in games, but when I first started listenting I thought it was harsh- if I'm getting used to the sound of the d1 then surely if anyone who isn't me listens to the system it will sound harsh to them, all my friends are interested in trying this system (they've never heard hi-fi before) so I want something that is memorable and punchy within 5 seconds of listening, not something that takes a month to learn to appreciate), I know the system is for me and my listening- but my friends know i'm spending £350 on this set up and I want them to listen to it and say it was worth it, and open them up to hi-fi too (I would love to have friends who would do this research for me, and who I could ask for advice ha ha)
 
maybe i'll just stick to the xonar u3 and e12- get rid of everything else and use the money for something completely different

 

[cel4145]

I really think it does- USB sounds flat, and plain, SPDIF sounds brighter and, just better- maybe i'm just a glutton for punishment as I really want to not have to use SPDIF, so of course my self destrucitve brain is going to tell me spdif is better! and I did read that SPDIF is better- a double blind test is needed, but who do I trust to do it for me and not judge me as a weirdo with too much time to spare

in my reading I did find numerous people saying that the audioengine d1 (and many many other dacs) sound better over spdif, and that anything round my price bracket will usually sound better over spdif
i'll post up some links and quotes

Yep. Audio memory is so unreliable, even those links and quotes are not definitive. The problem with some of the more technical USB vs SPDIF arguments out there is that sometimes they are arguing about things that are beyond the audible threshold. LOL

Go with what sounds best to you and don't worry about it

I've also noticed that with the audio engine d1 I prefer the sound of 44.1khz to 96khz, again 44.1 sounds more dynamic and 96khz sounds too smooth- from my reading this seems like it's not placebo, as the higher sample rates do smooth out treble and some fidelity is lost in the re-sampling process- so I guess I just prefer a more dirty sound! Also most music is in 44.1, so switching to a higher sample rate introduces extra processing, 44.1 should be bit perfect 

edit: testing with 96khz flac files, I noticed the fiio sounded much better set to 96khz (extra detail)- so from this I can conclude that: 1) either some devices are better at higher sample rates 2) or you should match the sampling frequency to your source music  

Definitely. Resampling could affect the music. Doesn't hurt to run at 24 bit if the original sources files are 16 bit, but better not to change the sampling.

one more thing:
i've read that the D1 is a better DAC than the schitt modi, and the modi only really makes sense paired with the magni- I like how they look, but I'd like to keep the e12 for use as a portable amp. I've also read that the d1 dac (ak something?) is better than the fiio dac (wolfson)

I would be very surprised if the D1's DAC is better than the Modi. And you can definitely pair the Modi with other headphone amps.

i'm starting to like the extra detail from the audioengine d1 and it is certainly noticable in games, but when I first started listenting I thought it was harsh- if I'm getting used to the sound of the d1 then surely if anyone who isn't me listens to the system it will sound harsh to them, all my friends are interested in trying this system (they've never heard hi-fi before) so I want something that is memorable and punchy within 5 seconds of listening, not something that takes a month to learn to appreciate),

I still think you need to try the ODAC

By all counts, the ODAC is comparable to the Modi. It's much smaller (and thus more portable), and I bet you get no price benefit over getting the Modi since you live in the UK. When I switched from the Xonar STX to the ODAC, I felt that the sound was deeper, as if there was some very, very low threshold of noise that had been removed giving me more depth (notice I said "felt" since I cannot know for sure ).

akg k81dj's plugged into laptop > wanted usb interface to save having headphones sticking out of side of computer (less cables attached to laptop)  

Do you still have your K81 DJs?

 

[firefly89]

ok i've made my decision
 
so here's the final testing results, and my thoughts
 
 
My final set-up
 
laptop > fiio e17 via usb (also xonar u3 connected via optical for use in windows for dolby headphone in games) > fiio e12 amp > k701
 
 
 
 
sound tests
 
I tried to match volume as best I could, making 1db adjustments (not scientific), and when one set up would sound better I turned down the volume to see if it still sounded better, or if the 'better sound' was just a result of loudness.
 
I set up 4 tracks in a program called traktor, and set up a multi-output device so that I could just switch cables and not have to fiddle around in software to change output. The results were illuminating, so called 'night and day differences' disappeared and it became obvious that some tracks sounded better through one set up and others through another.
 
comparing the u7 to the u3, the u7 sounds more harsh but more detailed, the u3 was muddy, but in quite a pleasant way, it would be less fatiguing to listen to- I think this is completely contrary to what I heard yesterday but today that's what I heard. The on board audio sounds ok, but is slightly muffled.
 
 
D1 review
 
 
the d1 is a great product, I like it a lot- but ultimately functionality and needs come before sound quality- so the d1 loses this fight although it very very nearly won
sonically I give the edge to the d1, most of the time it's noticably clearer with more detail, but the difference is slight and sometimes they sound the same.

 
I liked this as i could set it up on my desk, and then have the xonar u3 feeding optical into the back of the unit, and usb going to the computer- It sounded extremly bass deficient so I always had to attach the e12 to get extra bass, at the expense of some detail- some songs sounded better just off the d1, others needed the e12- as most of what I listen to is bass heavy I had to use the e12 most of the time so I just left it attached under the desk, the set up was very neat and I could adjust volume extremely easily. Annoyingly there is no switch for the input, so depending on how you set up you might have to unplug the optical link to get it to work over usb
 
+ best sound quality in terms of detail retrieval and accuracy
+ brilliant looks and the volume knob is useful
- no eq so sounds bass light with my headphones
- slightly more expensive, but marginal
 
A/Bing the optical/usb input- I think optical sounds marginally better, but it's really subtle, and it's mostly in the high end sparkle where you lose out over usb- not many tracks really made a difference, but if lots of your music has sparkly treble then it might sound slightly better
 
d1 beats the e17 in separation and clarity, but loses on bass. The difference is minor, both sound great- so really just decide if you want portable or desktop.
 
 
e17 review
 
I think there really is a difference between usb and optical. USB sounds more congested, muffled- even set to the same volume, but realistically it's subtle, and not having an SPDIF cable out my laptop is a small price to pay (also I need the SPDIF input for connecting the xonar)
 
output over line (using l7) is slightly warmer/darker, and more bass focussed that the D1, I preferred this, it also had slightly more forward mids. I'd say it was more exciting than the d1 (which has more top end and was more neutral)
 
both sounded good on certain tracks and vice versa. The d1 was less forgiving, revealing detail where there was detail to be found and exposing weakness where there was none, the e17 seemed to be kinder to lower quality recordings, giving them a sparkle. I'm sure this means that with higher end headphones the d1 would be much better, so I am able to say with confidence the d1 is the better DAC.
 
ultimately the e17 won as my dac because I realised that I could strap it to the e12 (and they look awesome strapped together) and I had a portable, battery operated DAC and amp, I could use it with a console or any PC/laptop I ever find myself, and with a powered usb hub it might even work with an iPad
 
 
I wouldn't be happy with either as my only amp, neither really shine with the k701, but with bassier headphones maybe it would be better. The eq on the e17 makes up for the lack of bass but never gets as much sub bass as the e12 does, this song exposes that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpk6FTbxvc4, but on something less bass heavy it's hard to tell the difference
 
 
 
e12 review
 
the e12 definitely blurs out some detail in exchange for bass, I think a careful pairing is needed with other equipment. It pairs well with the k701 which seem to have the opposite sonic signature, the slightly warmer sound of the e17 DAC goes well with e12, it's a similar pairing to the e09k combo but is portable, and I hate the e09 aesthetics. The product looks great, but the micro usb is a bit of a pain- i'm searching for a cable with micro and mini usb plugs, so I can share cables between my other gear which all uses mini usb- there is a slight hum when it's charging (audiable in the headphones), so that might be a problem for IEM users. The reason I got the e12 over the e11 is the use while charging function so the hum was quite annoying, it's not that loud though, and most tracks will have background noise (or just a click track) that's louder anyway.
 
after hearing the 2 dac/amps paired with the e12 I couldn't go without the e12, the extra sub bass it digs up is fantastic, the e17 never pulls out that much bass even with the eq (set bass to 4 and it sounds similar,but extends more into the midrange and doesn't get the sub bass)
 
 
 
the thing I realised most is that the audio world is just an exercise in picking compromises (just like the camera lens world I also subscribe to), detail was great on d1, bass was better on e17, d1+e12 has good detail but less bass, e17+e12 has better bass but slightly less detail. If you want bass chose the latter, if you want detail chose the former, If you're on a budget go for the e17, if you're on a tighter budget the e07k, if you're looking for ultimate detail go for just the d1, if you're looking for something portable go for the e12 or e17, if you want to go to powered speakers the d1 is better as it has the volume control
maybe there is something out there for £10,000 that does everything
 
ultimately I was listening to something and thought 'holy crap this sounds amazing', it was the e12 and e17 connected via usb- at this point after about 10 hours of testing I thought fine, ok, i'll call it a day- that set up wins.
 
also realistically just connecting to the onboard output sounded good too, not as good, but £250 is a lot of money to spend for that small increase in sound quality- I got such a good deal on the headphones so i'm happy but still ive spent nearly twice as much on amps.
 
all I need to do is some gaming, if I find myself getting knifed in the back a lot, and not hearing those enemy footsteps then I will switch back to the d1- the d1 was great for games, although in fairness I said the u3 was great for games (until I heard the d1, now going back to the u3 sounds awful...)
 
 
I had thought seriously about the e07k to replace the e17- in theory the DAC section should sound the same (same DAC), but the amp is weaker (won't matter over line?), it's £40 cheaper, has 2 headhone sockets (maybe not that useful?), it works with ipad, but doesn't have spdif input- this could be a deal breaker. I was feeding the xonar u3 into the e17 using spdif but will try with the aux input too (although I think the l7 dock covers up that input)

 

[firefly89]

Quote:

Yep. Audio memory is so unreliable, even those links and quotes are not definitive. The problem with some of the more technical USB vs SPDIF arguments out there is that sometimes they are arguing about things that are beyond the audible threshold. LOL

Go with what sounds best to you and don't worry about it

Definitely. Resampling could affect the music. Doesn't hurt to run at 24 bit if the original sources files are 16 bit, but better not to change the sampling.
I would be very surprised if the D1's DAC is better than the Modi. And you can definitely pair the Modi with other headphone amps.
I still think you need to try the ODAC

By all counts, the ODAC is comparable to the Modi. It's much smaller (and thus more portable), and I bet you get no price benefit over getting the Modi since you live in the UK. When I switched from the Xonar STX to the ODAC, I felt that the sound was deeper, as if there was some very, very low threshold of noise that had been removed giving me more depth (notice I said "felt" since I cannot know for sure

).
Do you still have your K81 DJs?

 
agreed on subjectivity- I was adjusting the eq, hearing the bass rise and fall, then realized the eq was disabled and it was making zero difference 
 
would like to try the odac, and it is portable? (has a battery?)- modi looks a lot better though, and so nice with the magni too. Maybe get the modi-magni for home, and the fiio's trapped together for portable and office
D1 has a very good dac aparantly, used in many other seriously high end dac's
 
yes I still have the k81's- they're in pretty bad shape though

 

[cel4145]

It's definitely portable. Here's a quick shot of it next to my logitech mouse and swingline stapler:



Draws power from USB. No battery needed. I've found that it works also with Android tablets and phones that have USB audio out capability with a USB UTG adapter.

D1 has a very good dac aparantly, used in many other seriously high end dac's

Be wary of judging DACs based on the actual DAC chip. Implementation is everything.

 

[firefly89]

Wow, it's tiny!
Looks bigger in pictures
Only issue is that all the controls and inputs are on the front, including power, so couldn't have it on my desk, it has no volume control so I'd have to control things from just the e12, nd it has no spdif input (or aux input) so I'd have to switch back to my sound are when I load a game (and the whole point of the dac was to bring out detail when gaming- competitive advantage), so yeah just talked myself out the odac ha ha

I'm actually swaying towards the d1 now, now I've cleared my desk of clutter it looks very pretty on my desk. And the volume knob is useful, very very useful,adjusting volume on the fiio is a bit of a pain as I have to hide the cable monster under my desk
Realistically although the fiio set up is a battery powered dac/amp, it's still quite big to carry, and how often do I need portable really, I don't even leave the house with my k701's, the only use would be for gaming at events/LAN parties etc, I could use the dac to get nice clean signal from whatever source I liked (although without Dolby headphone)

And for console use, I just now the one time this will ever be useful (I.e I find myself in a room with a console and want headphones) I'm going to have forgotten the 3.5mm adaptor

It's hard to ignore the fact that I said multiple times the d1 has better detail, it does. The e17 is a nice pairing, but I actually like the lo-Fi sound of the e12 connected to the soundcard directly (energetic and bassy), connected to the d1 it's pure and analytical, connected to the e17 it's somewhere in the middle- thr fiioe17 and line out dock comes to £110- that's quite a spend together marginal difference (in the real world not head-Fi world ) so maybe keep the d1 for specific listening where i want the extra detail (and gaming), and keep running to the soundcard for everyday listening

Im also back onto considering a pro level audio interface, I used to dj and make music- so a great pro dac that has line ins and multiple line outs could be useful if I get back into mixing and making music, I certainly have the studio headphones for proper mixing now. I might try the focusrite scarlett (but no spdif input, not a major problem thought)

I'm always limited by what's available on amazon prime

 

[firefly89]

Also I'm going to try using the built in 31 band equaliser to get a little more sub bass, if I can make the d1+e12 sound a touch more bassy I think I'd like it. If I could add a lot more sub bass I could survive without the e12! I would like the keep it as a portable though

 

[cel4145]

Wow, it's tiny!
Looks bigger in pictures
Only issue is that all the controls and inputs are on the front, including power, so couldn't have it on my desk, it has no volume control so I'd have to control things from just the e12, nd it has no spdif input (or aux input) so I'd have to switch back to my sound are when I load a game (and the whole point of the dac was to bring out detail when gaming- competitive advantage), so yeah just talked myself out the odac ha ha

It's just a DAC. It doesn't have any controls. The D1 has controls because it's a DAC/headphone amp with pre-amp capabilities for a line out. The Modi doesn't have any controls either. Whatever you plug into it will have the controls???

 

[firefly89]

Quote:

It's just a DAC. It doesn't have any controls. The D1 has controls because it's a DAC/headphone amp with pre-amp capabilities for a line out. The Modi doesn't have any controls either. Whatever you plug into it will have the controls???

 
that's what makes it unique
 
my ideal set up is: 1 device on desk, with volume control, other device hidden under desk with wires neatly stored. The e12 is a nice amp, I like it- i'm not sure I can be bothered trying to find something different, and although I probably don't need a portable dac, a portable amp is useful. So here the d1 actually works fantastically- and although I could leave the fio e17 on the desk, and have the e12 underneath, adjusting the volume via knob is more satisfying than buttons (really ha!)
 
that single simple detail might be the deal breaker...
 
but on the flip side- I do like the idea of a portable battery dac, and the fiios pair well (and I have tone controls)
I know I could eq on the computer but if I set up the dac/amp how I like it, then in theory playing bit perfect audio should result in the same quality on any system- i.e. if I go over to my friends house, a song should sound exactly the same as it does back at my house?