nattonrice
500+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Posts
- 979
- Likes
- 37
The 13's have replaced most full sized cans for a decent number of people.
They sound superb and are just plain convenient.
They sound superb and are just plain convenient.
PS1000 - comparison to HD800 and JH13?
- Thread starter directmusic
- Start date
qusp
Member of the Trade: Twisted Cables
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2008
- Posts
- 7,743
- Likes
- 62
yep, definitely add me to that list. I still have other headphones around for a change now and then, but JH13 are the one I reach for most often; regardless of whether i'm leaving the house or not. I based my latest rather expensive DIY build totally around tuning for them, I searched out the best high quality unity gain balanced amp I could build and added it to a fine quality sabre based dac (ackodac not buffalo) this was reinforced for me yet again at this years Sydney and Brisbane headfi meets; where after limited listening, I didnt feel anything there would please me more regardless of price
neptius
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2009
- Posts
- 298
- Likes
- 11
I listen several times several Grado models for several hours include their top models like GS 1000 or PS 1000. I think the best one are in quality to pricetag ratio notorially spoken SR 60 or SR 80. In USA, we can consider SR 225(i) or 325(is). When you love Grado sound, then RS1. GS 1000 or PS 1000 sounds „better“, because they are bigger or there are „better“ cables, well tunned, but there is nothing rational about their price tag. Serious addition in sound quality is not so significant as for other producers series. Grado models are perfectly tuned for several sorts of music, this is their great and unique addition. They are model to model tunned and different in several differences in sound purposes, but I can not consider the real value of PS 1000 in case when I can obtain HD 800, Beyer T1, or electrostats like STAX 404, or, especially with high end earbusters like JH 13 or JH 16 toys (especially with new amp) in same order of pricetag. Simply said, you obtain much more in sound quality with these models then with Grados.
All depends what you expect from them. When you absolutely prefer or love Grado sound then you personaly accept these disproportions in quality to price ratio and you purchase „better or best“ Grado models which does „superior in quality“ in compare with lower models like SR 60 or SR 80, but exclude interest on their pricetag. But when you rationally expect „the best“ quality or rational benefits from the model from the class of super high ends, then Grado will NOT deliver you the true super high end sound quality, especially when you see price tag and delivered sound reproduction quality. From headphones with price tag higher then 1000 dollars you simply expect much more then these grados can deliver you. Other models in this class like HD 800, T1, JH 13 or 16 .... delivers you much more.
The reason is the fact that Grado has one notorialy repeately used concept of conductor and he is not able do very serious innovation step or serious revolutionary discoveries. Him applied technology has rational limits which are hardly pushing able to higher levels of quality, when new innovation models like HD 800, T1, JH 13 or 16 with absolute new technological additions from latest discoveries, they open new possibilities to push forward the resulting quality of sound reproduction. So the latest concepts can deliver you more then 25 years repeated in common same technology tunned for this or this sound purpose or „form“ of headphones or for applied „materials“. So I simply say that Grado is limited in ranges of him concept of conductor and he is hardly able to do significant great jump in sound quality as was made by HD 800, T1, JH 13 or 16 with absolute new concepts. So this is the reason which forms from the worth to terrible quality of pricetag ratio for Grados. The situation is Europe where Grados are much more expensive as in USA only lights the problem.
When you see AKG K 701 and their very attractive pricetag then you can hardly find the reason to purchase GS 1000 or PS 1000 in their level of pricetag, especially in Europe, because K 701 are excellent product with extremely attractive price tag, but naturally, the sound reproduction and their form is the most important for true audiophile enthusiast by which you choose headphones. So when K 701 are not the sort for you (for your ears) than you can choose DT 880, Sennheiser models, T50, T1, HD 800 .... where the rationality of their pricetag is in real values incompare with several high level grados.
In the area of sound quality, simply said PS 1k are NOT comparing able with HD 800. I think, for me, HD 800 are class higher in quality then PS 1k. The mids or highs are much better for HD 800. The dynamics (balanced version) is much better for HD 800. The soundstage and airstage are absolutely uncomparing able (especially recabled with Voice cable). The voices for HD 800 are better then so spoken Grados. The smoothness between bass and middles or middles and highs are much better for HD 800 or T1 then Grados. For T1 you can very continuously listen the move from midds to highs, from bass to middles, when PS 1k or GS 1k are „hot“ for 80Hz frequences and discontinued. HD 800 are very analytical (clinically) but their detail is excellent, incomparing able with grados. When you listen the track where the sound came continuously from bass spectrum (by different Instruments) to middles and then to highs, then you will see how false are highs for GS 1000 or PS 1000, or where are problems in dynamics for them. The T1 are simply said incomparing able with grados in this aspect. Instruments localization is much better for HD 800. Bass or trebles is specific thing for HD 800, there was written million of replies or posts about it, but there is the question what you compare with what thing. When you apply Stefan Audio Art Voice cable for HD 800, balanced version, then you obtain much more in bass or trebles as with stock cable. So when you apply balanced amps like Rudistor’s, Woo audio, Ray samuels or Eddie Current, then you obtain better quality from HD 800 then from Grados in most aspects of sound quality or reproduction.
I think, Grado PS 1000 are heavily absurdly overcoted and this is their reason whay they are not „legendary“ in opinion as HD 800 or T1 owners. This is true for USA customers and dramaticly for European one. I do not know what is all different between GS 1000 and PS 1000, but 70 percent higher pricetag is absurde. What is different in production costs between RA1 (or SR 225i) and GS 1000 or SR 325i(s) and PS 1000? Only bigger size means much bigger pricetag? Yes, each model is individually tunned, tested, paired, sorted ..., but this is true for HD 800, T1, JH 13 or 16 too. When HD 800 or T1 are absolutely new inovation headphones with absolutely new Technologies, the development took at about 5 years, Grado models are in common in same principle during last 25 years. When today HD 800 are slowly going down with pricetag, GS 1000 costs same 995 dolars as in time when released, three years ago. Is th production so expensive so there is no space for reducing the price? Has Grado so intensive development so he is not able to reduce the price in fact of costs of made thier development? HD 800 has very intensive long term development so when I purchase one I pay the cost of development distributed between sold models. As Sennheiser sell more and more items, he is able discalculate the value and reduce the final pricetag for HD 800. But this aspect I can not see for Grado models, for example for GS 1000(i). I think they are simply truely overcosted. As higher (bigger) Grado model the overcosting is higher and higher. And naturally, when we speak about Grado amp, I think, there was said a lot of info in this forums too. When for HD 800 you obtain much more fun during listening trough different sorts of amps, with Grado models it is much more complicated. Some gives benefits for them but some are without good listening experience.
In the end of my reply, simply said all depends on answer for one simple question, what you expect from sound reproduction, from headphones listening. When you strongly love grado style sound and you own lower models like SR 60, SR 80 up to SR 325i(s) and you are very happy with them, then you can find motivation to purchase RS1 or GS 1k or PS 1k to obtain superior sound quality from loved lower models and you absolutely not see or accept their rationality of pricetag. As higher model the ratio is worth and worth. When you want obtain from the class of super high end headphones excellent and „actual best“ sound quality, you want invest to serious and rational product, when you want something where you can truely argue the investment to them for your wife, then Grados are nothing for you. The HD 800, T1, JH 13 or 16 and other headphones delivers you much more in sound quality with adequate (rational) pricetag. When you want generally better sound quality, better in most of aspects of sound quality, then models like HD 800 or T1 delivers you much more. The Grados has excellent this aspect or this aspect of sound reproduction, but there are several other one where they are much worth then these top headphones, so the highs are less quality as T1 etc. So there are the aspects for GS 1000(i) or PS 1000 which are less sound quality as is rationaly expected from the class of super high ends. All depends on your decision, nothing less nothing more if you want invest to them or not, if you want superior sound quality for complete Grado production of headphones or not, if you want rational price tag headphones from (super) high end class or not, nothing less nothing more.
PS: All what I presented in this reply is only my personal opinion and experience which I found during several hours of listening trough Grado models and other models like HD 800, T1, D 7000 etc. I am in opinion neutral and objective, so I am not narrowed again or for somebody or something.
All depends what you expect from them. When you absolutely prefer or love Grado sound then you personaly accept these disproportions in quality to price ratio and you purchase „better or best“ Grado models which does „superior in quality“ in compare with lower models like SR 60 or SR 80, but exclude interest on their pricetag. But when you rationally expect „the best“ quality or rational benefits from the model from the class of super high ends, then Grado will NOT deliver you the true super high end sound quality, especially when you see price tag and delivered sound reproduction quality. From headphones with price tag higher then 1000 dollars you simply expect much more then these grados can deliver you. Other models in this class like HD 800, T1, JH 13 or 16 .... delivers you much more.
The reason is the fact that Grado has one notorialy repeately used concept of conductor and he is not able do very serious innovation step or serious revolutionary discoveries. Him applied technology has rational limits which are hardly pushing able to higher levels of quality, when new innovation models like HD 800, T1, JH 13 or 16 with absolute new technological additions from latest discoveries, they open new possibilities to push forward the resulting quality of sound reproduction. So the latest concepts can deliver you more then 25 years repeated in common same technology tunned for this or this sound purpose or „form“ of headphones or for applied „materials“. So I simply say that Grado is limited in ranges of him concept of conductor and he is hardly able to do significant great jump in sound quality as was made by HD 800, T1, JH 13 or 16 with absolute new concepts. So this is the reason which forms from the worth to terrible quality of pricetag ratio for Grados. The situation is Europe where Grados are much more expensive as in USA only lights the problem.
When you see AKG K 701 and their very attractive pricetag then you can hardly find the reason to purchase GS 1000 or PS 1000 in their level of pricetag, especially in Europe, because K 701 are excellent product with extremely attractive price tag, but naturally, the sound reproduction and their form is the most important for true audiophile enthusiast by which you choose headphones. So when K 701 are not the sort for you (for your ears) than you can choose DT 880, Sennheiser models, T50, T1, HD 800 .... where the rationality of their pricetag is in real values incompare with several high level grados.
In the area of sound quality, simply said PS 1k are NOT comparing able with HD 800. I think, for me, HD 800 are class higher in quality then PS 1k. The mids or highs are much better for HD 800. The dynamics (balanced version) is much better for HD 800. The soundstage and airstage are absolutely uncomparing able (especially recabled with Voice cable). The voices for HD 800 are better then so spoken Grados. The smoothness between bass and middles or middles and highs are much better for HD 800 or T1 then Grados. For T1 you can very continuously listen the move from midds to highs, from bass to middles, when PS 1k or GS 1k are „hot“ for 80Hz frequences and discontinued. HD 800 are very analytical (clinically) but their detail is excellent, incomparing able with grados. When you listen the track where the sound came continuously from bass spectrum (by different Instruments) to middles and then to highs, then you will see how false are highs for GS 1000 or PS 1000, or where are problems in dynamics for them. The T1 are simply said incomparing able with grados in this aspect. Instruments localization is much better for HD 800. Bass or trebles is specific thing for HD 800, there was written million of replies or posts about it, but there is the question what you compare with what thing. When you apply Stefan Audio Art Voice cable for HD 800, balanced version, then you obtain much more in bass or trebles as with stock cable. So when you apply balanced amps like Rudistor’s, Woo audio, Ray samuels or Eddie Current, then you obtain better quality from HD 800 then from Grados in most aspects of sound quality or reproduction.
I think, Grado PS 1000 are heavily absurdly overcoted and this is their reason whay they are not „legendary“ in opinion as HD 800 or T1 owners. This is true for USA customers and dramaticly for European one. I do not know what is all different between GS 1000 and PS 1000, but 70 percent higher pricetag is absurde. What is different in production costs between RA1 (or SR 225i) and GS 1000 or SR 325i(s) and PS 1000? Only bigger size means much bigger pricetag? Yes, each model is individually tunned, tested, paired, sorted ..., but this is true for HD 800, T1, JH 13 or 16 too. When HD 800 or T1 are absolutely new inovation headphones with absolutely new Technologies, the development took at about 5 years, Grado models are in common in same principle during last 25 years. When today HD 800 are slowly going down with pricetag, GS 1000 costs same 995 dolars as in time when released, three years ago. Is th production so expensive so there is no space for reducing the price? Has Grado so intensive development so he is not able to reduce the price in fact of costs of made thier development? HD 800 has very intensive long term development so when I purchase one I pay the cost of development distributed between sold models. As Sennheiser sell more and more items, he is able discalculate the value and reduce the final pricetag for HD 800. But this aspect I can not see for Grado models, for example for GS 1000(i). I think they are simply truely overcosted. As higher (bigger) Grado model the overcosting is higher and higher. And naturally, when we speak about Grado amp, I think, there was said a lot of info in this forums too. When for HD 800 you obtain much more fun during listening trough different sorts of amps, with Grado models it is much more complicated. Some gives benefits for them but some are without good listening experience.
In the end of my reply, simply said all depends on answer for one simple question, what you expect from sound reproduction, from headphones listening. When you strongly love grado style sound and you own lower models like SR 60, SR 80 up to SR 325i(s) and you are very happy with them, then you can find motivation to purchase RS1 or GS 1k or PS 1k to obtain superior sound quality from loved lower models and you absolutely not see or accept their rationality of pricetag. As higher model the ratio is worth and worth. When you want obtain from the class of super high end headphones excellent and „actual best“ sound quality, you want invest to serious and rational product, when you want something where you can truely argue the investment to them for your wife, then Grados are nothing for you. The HD 800, T1, JH 13 or 16 and other headphones delivers you much more in sound quality with adequate (rational) pricetag. When you want generally better sound quality, better in most of aspects of sound quality, then models like HD 800 or T1 delivers you much more. The Grados has excellent this aspect or this aspect of sound reproduction, but there are several other one where they are much worth then these top headphones, so the highs are less quality as T1 etc. So there are the aspects for GS 1000(i) or PS 1000 which are less sound quality as is rationaly expected from the class of super high ends. All depends on your decision, nothing less nothing more if you want invest to them or not, if you want superior sound quality for complete Grado production of headphones or not, if you want rational price tag headphones from (super) high end class or not, nothing less nothing more.
PS: All what I presented in this reply is only my personal opinion and experience which I found during several hours of listening trough Grado models and other models like HD 800, T1, D 7000 etc. I am in opinion neutral and objective, so I am not narrowed again or for somebody or something.
neptius
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2009
- Posts
- 298
- Likes
- 11
In ear headphones with a lot of drivers (up to 8 per side) can deliver the advantage again big full-size headphones in sound reproduction, their technology has moved forward during last 3 years rapidly, so high end models are very serious for true audiophile listening with their specific experience. It is difficult to compare them. When we speak about „headphones“ not ear-busts or in-ear’s then HD 800, T1 or several other models are much more for you then Grados. When you prefer portable aspect of in-ear monitors, then JH 13 or JH 16 with new device (dac+amp) is fantastic solution for you. I highly prefer classical headphones, because I can not so listen music trough more then one hour with in-ears. I get used full-size headphones.
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2009
- Posts
- 3,244
- Likes
- 923
I've had the JH13's for a year now, and although when I purchased them my best can was a modded D5000, I have to say the JH13's just blew them out of the water. The Denon's have had maybe 5 hours head time in the last year. In fact, they were actually painful to listen to -- although I had never noticed sibilance with them previously, after getting used to the jh13's, I started noticing sibilance in vocals on pretty much every song with vocals. It drove me crazy. I do have a T1 and LCD-2 on order though, as I feel there are some things you need a full size headphone for.
Uncle Erik
Uncle Exotic
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2006
- Posts
- 22,596
- Likes
- 532
I don't think the PS-1000 is a very good value. I've spent a fair bit of time listening to them at meets and they leave me cold. The bass is overdone and I found nothing compelling about them. If they were $500 or $600, I might pick up a pair for the collection, but I don't know if they'd get much head time.
The HD-800 seemed like overhyped and overpriced when I first heard of them. I was completely opposed and my expectations were low when I got my hands on them. But I was completely wrong. Eating crow never tasted so good. I sold off a bit of the collection and bought a pair. Over a year later, they are still wonderful. I go back and forth on whether I prefer them or the K-1000. Both are wonderful and I feel privileged to own them.
I was similarly skeptical of the JH13. I prefer speakers and full-sized open headphones. IEMs were a necessary evil for when isolation is needed. Again, I was wrong. The JH13 is wonderful. I don't own a pair - yet - but the JH13 will be my next major purchase by the end of the year. It will be wonderful to have the isolation and excellent sound. They will be close to the end of the hi-fi road for me. I already have my "dream" rigs for speakers and headphones. The JH13 will be the last word in portability for me.
The HD-800 seemed like overhyped and overpriced when I first heard of them. I was completely opposed and my expectations were low when I got my hands on them. But I was completely wrong. Eating crow never tasted so good. I sold off a bit of the collection and bought a pair. Over a year later, they are still wonderful. I go back and forth on whether I prefer them or the K-1000. Both are wonderful and I feel privileged to own them.
I was similarly skeptical of the JH13. I prefer speakers and full-sized open headphones. IEMs were a necessary evil for when isolation is needed. Again, I was wrong. The JH13 is wonderful. I don't own a pair - yet - but the JH13 will be my next major purchase by the end of the year. It will be wonderful to have the isolation and excellent sound. They will be close to the end of the hi-fi road for me. I already have my "dream" rigs for speakers and headphones. The JH13 will be the last word in portability for me.
neptius
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2009
- Posts
- 298
- Likes
- 11
Uncle erik – I agree. PS 1000 with pricetag 1700 dolars are irational for most of audiophile enthusiasts. From other super high end models you obtain much more then from this product, as I said in my long issue. But I have one idea more. When you see holding of Marantz and Denon company, where are other participants like McIntosh, there you can see how powerful is cooperation and individualization. All they produce speaker amplifiers, all they are different and individual, with their specialized production, but all they can apply their best technologies together when they need. I think, when McIntosh is in holding and is from New York, has „open“ hands for production, absolutely same is possible for Grado and headphones. Denons are closed wood-style models, Grados are open one. They are not in contradition, but supplemented. So when Grado will join to this consortion, he can use best technologies like excellent cables, diaphrams, coils ... and then he can by series tune one model to each other. The „standard“ production will be in some „standard“ company somewhere (in USA or Japan) and top models he can produce „at home“. If he do it he can obtain much better pricetag ratio control as today and much more audiophile enthusiasts can find motivation and reason to purchase these headphones. The technological deficit will be there in general eliminated, so there will be not drawbacks as today with GS 1000 or PS 1000. I think, GS 1000 could be producing able by pricetag 600-700 dollars and PS 1000 with pricetag at about 800-900 dollars. Then the things will be ok. As I said, all depends on business decisions. When McIntosh joined to holding, they made strategic decision which helped them a lot. A think, when John Grado has elementar economial or business knowledge, he can do same as McIntosh company. Then he will do great work for audiophile enthusiasts and great thing for him company’s business or profit benefits. That’s all. Same is true for priceing in Europe, because other producers has not the problem like Grado that somewhere outside products costs much more as „at home“ country. This is only internal problem in business participation of partners, nothing more. As I said, only the customer is the owner of personal money and customer does decision what you purchase, if you accept something or not. All what you buy is all what you get. That’s all.
neptius
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2009
- Posts
- 298
- Likes
- 11
And something for for Grado funs, what you think about this picture?
http://image5.poco.cn/mypoco/myphoto/20071228/18/3573793920071228180345493_001_640.jpg
I am practically blind so I am not so able to see what is there. But the friend sayd me that it looks like Grado amp, but the quality ...
http://image5.poco.cn/mypoco/myphoto/20071228/18/3573793920071228180345493_001_640.jpg
I am practically blind so I am not so able to see what is there. But the friend sayd me that it looks like Grado amp, but the quality ...
Uncle Erik
Uncle Exotic
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2006
- Posts
- 22,596
- Likes
- 532
neptius, maybe I missed something, but Grado is an independent little family company that - I think - is going to remain independent. They're not like the other manufacturers. My complaint with the PS-1000 and other high-price headphones is that they've priced fhemselves right into used high-end speaker territory. There are speakers at Audiogon in the $1,000-$2,000 range that are better than any headphone. Even better, these speakers run well from a $20 used receiver. So the value proposition has shifted squarely back to speakers; I just hope the manufacturers realize this before their market moves to loudspeakers.
markmaxx
1000+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2005
- Posts
- 1,426
- Likes
- 13
Quote:
I totally agree.. I think the market for audiophile headphone use,, in reality is limited to situations where speakers are not practical..(apartment life, late night listening etc.)
I do have the HD 800 and the PS 1000 I like them both... The K 1000 gave me a headache,, they pinched my temples,,loved the sound..traded them off..
neptius
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2009
- Posts
- 298
- Likes
- 11
Pardon, but there is missunderstanding. I said the hypotetical idea. McIntosh is in well known D&M Holding -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%26M_Holdings
and I presented the fact that both Marantz, Denon and McIntosh produces several „same type“ products (for example loudspeaker’s amps), but together they are in holding and they have big profit in several way from participation. Then I said hypotetical idea that the same is rational for Grado company (in same way as McIntosh from New York made some years ago) in the area of headphones or phono cartridges too. The benefits will be again significant for complete holding and for participating company too, and this company can have very serious order of independency in their „personal“ production, as for example McIntosh has. That’s the hypothesis, nothing more, but this idea (I think) is very rational. When it will happen then Grado headphones are able cost rational pricetag and Grado will have no problems with market partners as today in Europe. All about market business partners is about agreements about distribution and selling, about conditions and rules.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%26M_Holdings
and I presented the fact that both Marantz, Denon and McIntosh produces several „same type“ products (for example loudspeaker’s amps), but together they are in holding and they have big profit in several way from participation. Then I said hypotetical idea that the same is rational for Grado company (in same way as McIntosh from New York made some years ago) in the area of headphones or phono cartridges too. The benefits will be again significant for complete holding and for participating company too, and this company can have very serious order of independency in their „personal“ production, as for example McIntosh has. That’s the hypothesis, nothing more, but this idea (I think) is very rational. When it will happen then Grado headphones are able cost rational pricetag and Grado will have no problems with market partners as today in Europe. All about market business partners is about agreements about distribution and selling, about conditions and rules.
saisunil
Member of the Trade: Care Audio
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2004
- Posts
- 489
- Likes
- 14
Grado Labs have never been busier with their current line-up and they are not able to keep up with the demand for their PS1000. Apparently, PS1000 are very labor intensive and hence the heavy pricetag. Grado sound is not for everyone - but for some it is heavenly ... to each their own ... it is good to have choices ...
What sounds like dull or lifeless from some when they listen to AKG or Senn is exciting ad full of Soul when they Listen to Grados ... Then there are others who find their musical truth through AKG and find Grados too colored and even hot ... then we have Beyers in between - some people find their balance through them while others think that Beyers are neither here nor there ....
Would a pair of cans give them happiness if they were cheaper? Probably for a short time ...
I think it is about finding the right voice first and then the right price ...
The flagship models are almost never a value proposition ...
Cheers ...
What sounds like dull or lifeless from some when they listen to AKG or Senn is exciting ad full of Soul when they Listen to Grados ... Then there are others who find their musical truth through AKG and find Grados too colored and even hot ... then we have Beyers in between - some people find their balance through them while others think that Beyers are neither here nor there ....
Would a pair of cans give them happiness if they were cheaper? Probably for a short time ...
I think it is about finding the right voice first and then the right price ...
The flagship models are almost never a value proposition ...
Cheers ...
majkel
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2007
- Posts
- 2,783
- Likes
- 64
What Grado shows is a good ear and little engineering produces amazing results.
What Beyerdynamic shows is a sturdy build and wise engineering produces great results.
What Sennheiser shows is modern design and crazy engineering produces weird results.
This is my summary of PS1000, T1 and HD800 models. Choose what you like.
What Beyerdynamic shows is a sturdy build and wise engineering produces great results.
What Sennheiser shows is modern design and crazy engineering produces weird results.
This is my summary of PS1000, T1 and HD800 models. Choose what you like.
563
500+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2009
- Posts
- 560
- Likes
- 18
i've got both the hd800 and the ps1000 and i love them both. no one forced me to buy either. anyway, whether the ps1000 is worth what grado is charging, who really knows? if he can charge it and get folks to buy his cans, then he's not overcharging, since no one has to buy his cans.
i have to say one thing, though. i've been fairly critical of grado's quality control in the past (and i still think that way), but a couple of weeks ago, i hopped on the subway and stopped by grado labs. while there, i chatted a while with john grado, and frankly, he seems just like a completely ordinary, rather soft spoken and nice guy. no airs about him that i could see. in fact, we talked about a lot of things (politics, you name it), but not much about headphones or music. he did say something that resonates with me, though - he's had opportuniites to go corporate, or make bigger money by expanding, but frankly, he's making a very decent living, so why (he says, and i agree) would he take on the headache of expanding beyond what he's got? and that makes tons of sense to me. there's more to life than cans or work, that's for sure.
anyway, i left there with a much better impression of john than the image i had of him. yeah, he charges lots, and again, quality control is certainly not the best, but who in new york (or anywhere else, nowadays) doesn't charge too much (whatever that is)? and again, no one is putting a gun to anyone's head to buy his headphones (or his phono cartridges), so he's just doing his thing. lucky him to have walked into that business (not sure his kids even want to follow in his footsteps).
...interestingly, whenever i let friends listen to both my hd800 or ps1000, most prefer the ps1000. i like them equally (and i even like my gs1000i cans, so there goes my credibility with some folks). i also find closed ear cans uncomfortable to wear, for what that's worth. the one final step i've yet to take is the jh iems. never even tried them (yet), but i suppose i will one day ...
and just to add one little nit to pick today - i wonder why many folks here often end their posts by saying, "this is just my opinion.." - of course it is, so there's no need to make that disclaimer (this is not just the gentleman from europe who does this - so i'm not picking on him). anyway, i'm probably just in a crotchety mood today for even pointing that out...
i have to say one thing, though. i've been fairly critical of grado's quality control in the past (and i still think that way), but a couple of weeks ago, i hopped on the subway and stopped by grado labs. while there, i chatted a while with john grado, and frankly, he seems just like a completely ordinary, rather soft spoken and nice guy. no airs about him that i could see. in fact, we talked about a lot of things (politics, you name it), but not much about headphones or music. he did say something that resonates with me, though - he's had opportuniites to go corporate, or make bigger money by expanding, but frankly, he's making a very decent living, so why (he says, and i agree) would he take on the headache of expanding beyond what he's got? and that makes tons of sense to me. there's more to life than cans or work, that's for sure.
anyway, i left there with a much better impression of john than the image i had of him. yeah, he charges lots, and again, quality control is certainly not the best, but who in new york (or anywhere else, nowadays) doesn't charge too much (whatever that is)? and again, no one is putting a gun to anyone's head to buy his headphones (or his phono cartridges), so he's just doing his thing. lucky him to have walked into that business (not sure his kids even want to follow in his footsteps).
...interestingly, whenever i let friends listen to both my hd800 or ps1000, most prefer the ps1000. i like them equally (and i even like my gs1000i cans, so there goes my credibility with some folks). i also find closed ear cans uncomfortable to wear, for what that's worth. the one final step i've yet to take is the jh iems. never even tried them (yet), but i suppose i will one day ...
and just to add one little nit to pick today - i wonder why many folks here often end their posts by saying, "this is just my opinion.." - of course it is, so there's no need to make that disclaimer (this is not just the gentleman from europe who does this - so i'm not picking on him). anyway, i'm probably just in a crotchety mood today for even pointing that out...
neptius
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2009
- Posts
- 298
- Likes
- 11
[size=12pt]Waw, discussion about the choice between headphones started. Several opinions are presented, what is the best for discussion, because there we can understand the things better, we can find new relations etc. Here are two positions, one which truly argue about the state, about real situation and second one based on advocacy of Grado approach or actual products. We can be familiar with one or second approach, but the “word war” will present nothing useful, no meaning for things, especially about pricing or technological aspect.[/size]
[size=12pt]When you are in big intercorporate international organization, you have great advantages to apply the latest technologies. For example, when Denon develops some very special thing for amplifiers, very special circuit, very effective capacitator ..., then other „independent“ producers in holding have much simpler access to this technology then company outside. For example, if Denon discover new very special top quality diaphram for headphones, then other producers in holding has simple access to this technology and they can apply for their products, integrate it to their projects. This mean that these producers are able mine from discovery, adapt for their products, deliver the best quality of the product to customers. When you are outside, completely independent, and you see that this technology has significant increase for the quality of the product, you have very limited space because this technology is patented. You can pay huge money for the ability to apply the patented technology in your product, or you need discover something other, or, you imitate it. But naturally, the imitation is often less quality then original, so this is not so good idea for top high end’s.[/size]
[size=12pt]This phenomena is true for Grado headphones. Because he applies at about 25-30 years old concept (for conductor), with which he has very serious experience, he has very limited space for long-time innovations. Once he came to limits where new extensions are in practice not possible, or so very expensive. Once the technology say you that other step is not so possible. When you discover unique new technology which deliver new are of possibilities for the quality of sound reproduction, the old concept is going to history. The variations with materials, variation with shape, facelift for something old is the “children’s toy game”, but very limited order for progress - you can only tune something existing, find some uniqneness, but you are NOT able do significant progress. As somebody said, this makes you very little engineering. The latest technologies simply pushed the quality to new level and old concept is unable run with new one. For Grado company this situation happen in year 2009.[/size]
[size=12pt]So in practice he can apply completely economial business price for technologies or “ingreediences” (apply complete economial price for cable, diaphram, coil, magnets ...), so the operation income price is very high and this cause very high customer’s end-price. When you are in holding, when one company is specialized in cables production, all contributors can use them in much discounted price as company outside, so the resulting products has much better possibilities for better end-price of the product. The problem with the price of Grado headphones (in USA or EU) is based on historical business strategy and old business decisions made by company. Today we are in global world, global economy so today you need think in much different aspect of business value as 10,20 or 30 years ago. Today the strategy to be small independent complete producer is not effective approach, the customer need pay much more as for corporate producer in holding. So the advocacy for pricing for Grado headphones fail in this aspect and the “advocate” need show the meaning of actual situation and the reasons.[/size]
[size=12pt]But, the year 2009 presented one absolutely new phenomena which dramatically changed situation. When John Grado released model GS 1000 in year 2006, in the market was established only very specific models in the class of super high ends or electostats. There was “unique” projects which discontinued, Sony Qualia, L3000, DX-1000, K-1000 ... they was produced in some value of items but this production has been understood as “unique event” for concrete time episode. So when John released GS 1000 model, he had relatively open space for him product in market, there were not strong concurrence, so the presentation of GS 1000 had rational economical possibilities for business success in market. But in year 2009 Sennheiser released HD 800, Beyerdynamic T1, in-ear monitors, custom type, JH audio models, Westone, Shure or Ultimate ears models has made giant technological progress, so the situation has dramatically changed for Grado with PS 1000 model. These new models formed new thinking and concept of super high end for headphones and these very expensive models found rational meaning and acceptation for large class of audiophile enthusiasts as Grado with him production, for example with GS 1000 model. In other hand, this situation happen because latest technologies pushed properties of materials or concepts away and they delivered new opportunities for the resulting sound quality.[/size]
[size=12pt]As I said, I present about my opinion which is based on facts and regular argumentation, nothing less nothing more. When Grado will join to consortium like D&M holding, he can do complete specialization on headphones tuning, to apply him legendary excellent audiophile ears, and apply the latest materials or technologies. In this case he can deliver much more in sound quality for customers then some facelift for GS 1000 with pricetag 70 percent higher. I do not think that there is so principal labour or something in producing that the 70 percent higher price is regular. This is absolutely irrational. Either he does something totally uneffective, redundant, or he is in so “prisoned” situation so he is unable to move forward, and in conclusions to reduce the resulting pricetag. But the value in order of 1700 dolars for PS 1000 or 1000 dollars for GS 1000 is totally irrational.[/size]
[size=12pt]Simply said, you customer, you have the right vote to do decision what you purchase and what you accept. When you present the opinion that you like the Grado style sound and you are very seriously interested on the products, this is very serious message for concurrence to see very open space where customers are seriously interested. As I said, if Grado joins to some international consortium it opens door for serious production and space for tuning, for building unique series ..., and of course, for the greatest customers satisfaction. That’s all.[/size]
[size=12pt]When you are in big intercorporate international organization, you have great advantages to apply the latest technologies. For example, when Denon develops some very special thing for amplifiers, very special circuit, very effective capacitator ..., then other „independent“ producers in holding have much simpler access to this technology then company outside. For example, if Denon discover new very special top quality diaphram for headphones, then other producers in holding has simple access to this technology and they can apply for their products, integrate it to their projects. This mean that these producers are able mine from discovery, adapt for their products, deliver the best quality of the product to customers. When you are outside, completely independent, and you see that this technology has significant increase for the quality of the product, you have very limited space because this technology is patented. You can pay huge money for the ability to apply the patented technology in your product, or you need discover something other, or, you imitate it. But naturally, the imitation is often less quality then original, so this is not so good idea for top high end’s.[/size]
[size=12pt]This phenomena is true for Grado headphones. Because he applies at about 25-30 years old concept (for conductor), with which he has very serious experience, he has very limited space for long-time innovations. Once he came to limits where new extensions are in practice not possible, or so very expensive. Once the technology say you that other step is not so possible. When you discover unique new technology which deliver new are of possibilities for the quality of sound reproduction, the old concept is going to history. The variations with materials, variation with shape, facelift for something old is the “children’s toy game”, but very limited order for progress - you can only tune something existing, find some uniqneness, but you are NOT able do significant progress. As somebody said, this makes you very little engineering. The latest technologies simply pushed the quality to new level and old concept is unable run with new one. For Grado company this situation happen in year 2009.[/size]
[size=12pt]So in practice he can apply completely economial business price for technologies or “ingreediences” (apply complete economial price for cable, diaphram, coil, magnets ...), so the operation income price is very high and this cause very high customer’s end-price. When you are in holding, when one company is specialized in cables production, all contributors can use them in much discounted price as company outside, so the resulting products has much better possibilities for better end-price of the product. The problem with the price of Grado headphones (in USA or EU) is based on historical business strategy and old business decisions made by company. Today we are in global world, global economy so today you need think in much different aspect of business value as 10,20 or 30 years ago. Today the strategy to be small independent complete producer is not effective approach, the customer need pay much more as for corporate producer in holding. So the advocacy for pricing for Grado headphones fail in this aspect and the “advocate” need show the meaning of actual situation and the reasons.[/size]
[size=12pt]But, the year 2009 presented one absolutely new phenomena which dramatically changed situation. When John Grado released model GS 1000 in year 2006, in the market was established only very specific models in the class of super high ends or electostats. There was “unique” projects which discontinued, Sony Qualia, L3000, DX-1000, K-1000 ... they was produced in some value of items but this production has been understood as “unique event” for concrete time episode. So when John released GS 1000 model, he had relatively open space for him product in market, there were not strong concurrence, so the presentation of GS 1000 had rational economical possibilities for business success in market. But in year 2009 Sennheiser released HD 800, Beyerdynamic T1, in-ear monitors, custom type, JH audio models, Westone, Shure or Ultimate ears models has made giant technological progress, so the situation has dramatically changed for Grado with PS 1000 model. These new models formed new thinking and concept of super high end for headphones and these very expensive models found rational meaning and acceptation for large class of audiophile enthusiasts as Grado with him production, for example with GS 1000 model. In other hand, this situation happen because latest technologies pushed properties of materials or concepts away and they delivered new opportunities for the resulting sound quality.[/size]
[size=12pt]As I said, I present about my opinion which is based on facts and regular argumentation, nothing less nothing more. When Grado will join to consortium like D&M holding, he can do complete specialization on headphones tuning, to apply him legendary excellent audiophile ears, and apply the latest materials or technologies. In this case he can deliver much more in sound quality for customers then some facelift for GS 1000 with pricetag 70 percent higher. I do not think that there is so principal labour or something in producing that the 70 percent higher price is regular. This is absolutely irrational. Either he does something totally uneffective, redundant, or he is in so “prisoned” situation so he is unable to move forward, and in conclusions to reduce the resulting pricetag. But the value in order of 1700 dolars for PS 1000 or 1000 dollars for GS 1000 is totally irrational.[/size]
[size=12pt]Simply said, you customer, you have the right vote to do decision what you purchase and what you accept. When you present the opinion that you like the Grado style sound and you are very seriously interested on the products, this is very serious message for concurrence to see very open space where customers are seriously interested. As I said, if Grado joins to some international consortium it opens door for serious production and space for tuning, for building unique series ..., and of course, for the greatest customers satisfaction. That’s all.[/size]
Users who are viewing this thread
