[Prog Rock Man]

The answer would be for a new cable to be opened up to see what is inside. Maybe it is not Belden's cheapest, maybe it is something else.
 
This report and others, along with reports from Belden themselves about making cables for others just makes me suspicious of what goes inside bespoke cables selling for thousands with thick sheething.

 

[Jon L]

Now I've GOT to try that Belden wire
 
Kidding aside, It would be impossible to conclude one way or the other based on pictures and information available so far.  As much as I dislike high-end cable companies that charge WAY too much, if the Japanese site is true, it would be such obvious and slam-dunk fraud, so easy to prove on the part of law-enforcement that it's difficult to imagine an established company like Purist actually do such a dumb thing.  
 
For example, on Purist's site:
 

	[size=xx-small] [/size]		[size=x-small]Technical Specifications [/size] [size=xx-small]Design Goals: High performance to cost ratio  Conductor: Solid Core  Metals: Copper Single Crystal  Shielding: Foil with drain wire  Dielectric: PVC  Dampening Material: Fluid  Gauge (effective): 22 AWG  Capacitance: 170 pF/m ±15% (pin-to-shield)  Resistance: 13.2 mO/m (conductor)  Estimated Break-In Time: 200 Hours  Cable Diameter: Single-Ended: 1/2" OD (One Channel)  Balanced: 3/4" OD (One Channel)  Material Treatment: Triple (3x) Cryomag© [/size]

 
Purist lists solid-core, single crystal copper wire, whereas Belden 9535 is stranded tinned-copper, not single crystal.  

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

The answer would be for a new cable to be opened up to see what is inside. Maybe it is not Belden's cheapest, maybe it is something else.
 
This report and others, along with reports from Belden themselves about making cables for others just makes me suspicious of what goes inside bespoke cables selling for thousands with thick sheething.

Exactly. Show me a brand new, dealer purchased Purist cable that has Belden wire in it. I'm just not buying in any way that this cable on the Japanese site is real. Purist has been around over 20 years, you really think they would be THAT stupid? And nobody would find out until now?
 
Purist doesn't necessarily make their own wire in house. A lot of cable companies don't. Extremely finely drawn, hyper pure Ohno continuous cast copper or hybrid alloys of gold/copper/silver of the type that Purist uses are very difficult and expensive to make. This isn't the contractor's grade crap that you get at the hardware store, and many high-end companies source their raw wire from wire makers. This is no different from any other industry.
 
The thickness in Purist's case comes from their shielding - they use either fluid, or stuff they call Ferox and Contego wrapped around the cable. In some cases a thick cable is all for show (see Virtual Dynamics), but that isn't the case here. Whether you think high-end cables can make any difference or not is completely irrelevant here, we're not arguing that and it's frankly irritating that every post about cables has a denier pop up just to shout ALL CABLES ARE STUPID AND YOU'RE STUPID.
 
Guess what, we KNOW your opinion already. Why don't you keep it to yourself.
 

 

[TheAttorney]

What strikes me about this thread is the hypocritical nature of the cable skeptics, who are so busy trying to score points, and trying so hard to always be right, that they replace careful, rigorous and fair investigation with obviously biased speculation, innuendo and wild assumptions. Not very scientific at all. 

 

[Mochan]

Your post is pretty hypocritical as well, the people who are replacing investigation with zeal are the people who are defending the Purist Proteus cable, saying it's "absolutely insane and STUPID for that to be the case it obviously isn't true."  I didn't see any investigating there. 
 
So you can get off the high horse we're all wildly speculating here, unless someone actually buys a $4000 just to chop it up. At least the Japanese site actually had the balls to do just that. Do you?

 

[Dev Avidon]

Quote:

Now I've GOT to try that Belden wire
 
Kidding aside, It would be impossible to conclude one way or the other based on pictures and information available so far.  As much as I dislike high-end cable companies that charge WAY too much, if the Japanese site is true, it would be such obvious and slam-dunk fraud, so easy to prove on the part of law-enforcement that it's difficult to imagine an established company like Purist actually do such a dumb thing.  
 
For example, on Purist's site:
 

	[size=xx-small] [/size]		[size=x-small]Technical Specifications [/size] [size=xx-small]Design Goals: High performance to cost ratio  Conductor: Solid Core  Metals: Copper Single Crystal  Shielding: Foil with drain wire  Dielectric: PVC  Dampening Material: Fluid  Gauge (effective): 22 AWG  Capacitance: 170 pF/m ±15% (pin-to-shield)  Resistance: 13.2 mO/m (conductor)  Estimated Break-In Time: 200 Hours  Cable Diameter: Single-Ended: 1/2" OD (One Channel)  Balanced: 3/4" OD (One Channel)  Material Treatment: Triple (3x) Cryomag© [/size]

 
Purist lists solid-core, single crystal copper wire, whereas Belden 9535 is stranded tinned-copper, not single crystal.  

As I'm an MOT, I don't get involved with this sort of thing usually, but just to throw it out there, as a point of reference, any well designed 75 ohm digital coax cable (basic RG-59/RG-6 stuff that you can buy in bulk from a hardware store) should sport a capacitance number somewhere in the range of 50 pF/m conductor-shield (as low capacitance as possible is considered electrically desirable in analog interconnects).  Also, for what it's worth, Belden (and many other major cable manufacturers) often tin the copper because it has a negligible impact on the conductivity of the wire, and prevents it from corroding (which has a not-so-negligible impact). 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Your post is pretty hypocritical as well, the people who are replacing investigation with zeal are the people who are defending the Purist Proteus cable, saying it's "absolutely insane and STUPID for that to be the case it obviously isn't true."  I didn't see any investigating there. 
 
So you can get off the high horse we're all wildly speculating here, unless someone actually buys a $4000 just to chop it up. At least the Japanese site actually had the balls to do just that. Do you?

Except what they chopped up was a $100 cable from China.
 

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Except what they chopped up was a $100 cable from China.
 

The Chinese are using Belden cable to make fakes? Or is it fake Belden too?
 
That would be pretty funny. Using fake Belden cable to make a fake Purist Audio Design cable.
 
se
 
 
 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

The Chinese are using Belden cable to make fakes? Or is it fake Belden too?
 
That would be pretty funny. Using fake Belden cable to make a fake Purist Audio Design cable.
 
se

 
Hehehe. I don't think it's fake Belden, if it was the printing would probably be misshapen or misspelled. Anyway, why even bother to make fake Belden when the real thing is so cheap? That's like faking a $10 Timex, why bother? Whatever wire is inside doesn't matter, they just have to knock off the PAD look, and then try and entice people with absurdly low priced sales.
 
Siltech counterfeiting got to the point that the counterfeiters actually invented their own model - the "SQ-88B" seen in this auction. Siltech has never made a cable called the SQ88B, but you will see it advertised for sale. This 100% authentic Siltech cable is 100% crap, and probably has Belden wire in it too. Or maybe fake Belden

http://cgi.ebay.com/Siltech-SQ-88B-G3-Interconnects-WBT-0101-Cable-/270782020238?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0bddba8e
 

 

[Uncle Erik]

What strikes me about this thread is the hypocritical nature of the cable skeptics, who are so busy trying to score points, and trying so hard to always be right, that they replace careful, rigorous and fair investigation with obviously biased speculation, innuendo and wild assumptions. Not very scientific at all. 

Are you saying that the scientific approach to cables is the correct one?

That cable believers don't make their purchases based on "obviously biased speculation, innuendo and wild assumptions"?

Because all I see are people making purchases based on folklore, oral tradition and superstition.

You don't need science to debunk unscientific arguments.

Also, what's so wrong about taking some pleasure in catching a fraud with their pants down? This "outrage" didn't crop up when one "high end" manufacturer was shown to be repackaging Oppo DVD players into fancy cases for four digit prices, or when Mark Levinson was caught rebranding cheap Chinese amps and substantially marking them up.

Face it, fraud pulses through the veins of audio. It isn't just the cables, you find bogus sources and amps everywhere. The difference with cables is that they're almost 100% fraud, save for the few that don't make extraordinary and thoroughly unsupported claims.

 

[TheAttorney]

Mochan, I think I’ll stay on my high horse a little longer.
 
I’ve never previously heard of this company and I don’t care if I ever come across any of their products. But I do care about fairness. Iif an innocent-until-proven-guilty person or company is to lose business or, in the extreme case, their livelihood as result of being publicly vilified, then at least the vilification should be true and accurate.
 
Prog rock man’s first post was interesting – I thought we may get an insight here into the high end cable business. And he correctly challenged the seller/company to respond – he beat me to that one. But when the company came back with an entirely plausible explanation, the thread started to go downhill. Instead of pursuing the investigation to get to the truth, some people just reverted to lazy, biased put downs and tired old cynical speculation. I was even waiting for UE to bring up the coat hanger story.
 
So, it was disappointing that a promising topic got diluted by biased speculation, and hypocritical for sound scientists to make judgements without substantiated facts.
 
UE, of course fraud exists in ALL walks of life, and of course  subjective claims have severe limitations, and I hate the way high end prices of all components are just getting ridiculous. But we don’t need to bring in the whole scope of the hifi world in order to make one specific point. It just dilutes the point and diffuses the argument.  
 
(The Attorney now gets off his high horse).   

 

[frenchbat]

For the record, the original article in japanese (from 2005) is about a change of connectors, to allow the author to use the PAD with his Mark Levinson amp. At no point the author is talking about any "fake chinese cable", or anything wrong with his cable. Also there's no ambiguity, it clearly states that the PAD cable is made out of Belden M9535.
 
Given this context, IMO the answer from PAD is a bit strange, if not overly defensive. Also knowing a bit about the japanese market, they don't buy from Ebay for that kind of money, as they can get the nice service of brick and mortar shops, where they can audition etc ... 
 
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

The burden of proof is on those making claims.

 

[Lenni]

 
I have never heard of PAD cables before, and their prices are way out of my budget, so I don’t worry about them at all. It’s about misinformation and finding out other sides of the allegations. you guys are on a mission... I'm not. I’m all against snake-oil, but I don’t believe what happened there (15yrs ago) is real. For example, I once bought an AQ’s speaker cable from eBay, before I knew any better, and noticed it had a spelling error; after some enquires turned out it was a fake. If it wasn’t for the spelling I would’ve never known. Show me a genuine PAD cable containing bulk cable, and I’ll change my mind.
 
Whether the PAD cables are worth $4000 or not, please read comment #4. anyway that's not the topic, but If you think you can do better at a fraction of the cost, go ahead and do it. 

Quote:

Well OF COURSE they would deny it.
 
I find it funny that you are more willing to believe and stick up for a company that sells $4000 cables. I mean I am sure in this world there are people with money to burn, but really? You'd rather defend a company that is clearly swimming in snake oil? No cable is worth $4000. Period.
 






 
 

 
 

 

[fatcat28037]

Quote:

Aw, I was hoping for another garden hose.

So the manufacturer claims the cable was "counterfeit," do they?

Well I'll wager that no one would be able to hear the difference between a "counterfeit" one and the real deal. Nor would anyone be able to measure a difference.

The operative word here being HEAR
 
A Cable Reality Thread, backed with photographic documentation, could become the "Bernie Getz" factor to cable manufacturers/marketers and cable buying audiophiles.