Project Ember Review
Jun 28, 2015 at 2:02 PM Post #601 of 1,366
He's got a Project Ember already mate.

I'm assuming this is a Windows machine? If so you can go into Device Properties & find out what the sound-card is. I'm on Mac & so I'm not able to direct you to exactly where the info is but it's there somewhere.

I'd still recommend a stand-alone DAC when you can afford one as you definitely the gear now to make the most of it. Something like an ODAC or Schiit Modi is relatively affordable. YMMV.

ROG SupremeFX 8-Channel High Definition Audio CODEC
Thats the soundcard that my motherboard has, but that doesn't really say much. Either way, which DAC would you recommend between the Modi and the ODAC?
 
Jun 28, 2015 at 2:53 PM Post #602 of 1,366
So if you're comparing the ODAC and Modi, looks like you're in the $150-ish price range. I would recommend going about $200 for the Beresford Caiman MKII. The ODAC is ancient and has the lowest review from Purrin on the thread listed below. I have owned the Modi for about a year and honestly it made only a marginal improvement on my laptop's output, yet was worse compared to my creative soundcard. If you're buying the Modi 1, it NEEDS the Wyrd USB signal enhancer for an additional $100 to make it sound up to par; otherwise you don't need that if you're getting the newest Modi 2.
 
The ROG Supreme FX is a codec (software) for the soundcard-section on your motherboard so it seems to not be a dedicated soundcard at all. Maybe you should consider investing around $300 on a medium-good DAC instead of around $150 on a bottom of the line one, to negate the need to upgrade again anytime soon.
 
Other DACs to check out under $300-ish are Gustard X12, Geek Out v2, and Music Streamer HD. For $750 go with the Gungnir.   
The main DAC thread is an excellent place to get started in your quest. It can become a bit time consuming there but at least post the question there for other great suggestions too.

 
PS- you can read a lot about all of these by searching on Head-Fi
 
Jun 28, 2015 at 3:09 PM Post #603 of 1,366
  ROG SupremeFX 8-Channel High Definition Audio CODEC
Thats the soundcard that my motherboard has, but that doesn't really say much. Either way, which DAC would you recommend between the Modi and the ODAC?

The built-in sound card should be good for a while.  I wouldn't bother with a DAC until you need more than one connection: like USB from computer, coax/optical from DVD/Blueray.
 
I don't like using USB connection to DAC, to much problems with drivers, optical is easiest, coax second, just my 2 cents.
 
Jun 28, 2015 at 3:22 PM Post #604 of 1,366
@RyHi-FiGuy, I hope my message above didn't sound too frank but I'm just trying to point you in the right direction with my real-world experience. But anyway please take our word for it - a decent DAC will do wonders to improve on the overall sound quality compared to a computer's headphone output, especially if you've got a good amp and set of 'cans like yours.
 
Coax / optical may be able to provide a more clean transport, but DACs with those implementations can be quite pricier. The USB signal enhancers like Wyrd and Gustard U12 on the other hand really do phenomenally with a USB connection to the DAC.
 
Jun 28, 2015 at 3:32 PM Post #605 of 1,366
I would just get to know the sound you have right now. Christmas isn't far away & by then you'll have gained a deeper understanding of the attributes of your system. If you still think you want/need better then look at stand-alone DAC's.
 
The ODAC is a perfectly good budget solution. Is it the best? No, it's not. But it's less than £100, doesn't need a power supply and (at least on my Mac) dead silent. The Schiit Modi 2 Uber is also supposed to be good for just a little bit more money. Also maybe look at the Cambridge Audio Dacmagic 100. That can be had for some hefty discounts. It's most likely where my money's going when I scrape it together. For a bit more money there's the Schiit Bifrost which also gets good reviews. As do Beresford DAC's. My only problem with Beresford is that you're also paying for an integral amp which seems kinda pointless for me as I'm very happy with my PEII. YMMV.
 
Jun 28, 2015 at 4:12 PM Post #606 of 1,366
@RyHi-FiGuy, The audio chipset on your motherboard is a Realtek ALC-889 which is really good.  See this article from Toms Hardware on DACs: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733.html. 
 
I've tried some blind testing with my system which has a ALC-889 chipset, a add in Xonar DG sound card, and with my stand alone  Bifrost and UD-301 and found that it was very difficult to tell the difference between them so decided that DACs don't give me the best bang for the buck, headphones are the biggest influence in the sound with amps second and DACs third.
 
The Ember has a larger effect on the sound than any of my DACs from my experiences.
 
Another thing you may want to try to see if you motherboard sound is holding you back is to connect a Fiio DAP or even your phone and connect to your Ember and see if you notice a difference.
 
Anyway, this is just my experiences, YMMV and everyone has their own experiences that they draw on, the only thing that matters is what sounds good to you.
 
Jun 28, 2015 at 4:28 PM Post #607 of 1,366
Following up on DavidA's link check the last page of the review,
Although we don't typically review audio gear, we believe that we have a few advantages over some hi-fi reviewers. First, we have no financial interest in the products we review. Second, we're PC enthusiasts, not self-proclaimed audiophiles. Consequently, we're not afraid to talk about our strengths and weaknesses. In the audio field, an inability to hear differences among devices spanning a large range of price points is self-defeating. But here, we can comfortably suggest that those products might simply perform similarly.
One thing we know we're good at is designing objective tests, learning from them, and drawing fact-basing conclusions based on the analysis. The integrity of our methodologies is everything, and we can't help but believe that approach is rare in audio equipment testing. We hope our readers will find our experience in testing valuable.
Of course, we also have to acknowledge our own shortcomings and the limits of these tests; neither is perfect. We are audio amateurs, not audio professionals. However, we've tried to create the best possible tests, documenting each and every step along the way so that others can conduct their own experiment and form their own opinion. If you see a way to improve upon our process, we welcome this and look forward to seeing your results, too.
If some of the conclusions we drew sounded implausible, don't worry; they did to us as well.

Try A Few Things For Yourself

Although there is no quick and easy way to replicate the tests in this article at home on your own, here are a few tests we hope you'll have fun with. They should be far more enlightening than our technical explanations of some of the concepts we discussed.
You probably can tell the difference in 1 dB volume levels, but can you reliably tell the difference in 0.5 dB volume levels?
Can you hear all the way up to 22 kHz? What about at or below 20 Hz?
You can probably hear an absolute 54 dB of dynamic range in your environment, but can you reliably hear 78 dB? For reference 16-bit audio has roughly 96 dB of dynamic range. Twenty-four-bit manages a theoretical 144 dB, although it's almost impossible to achieve more than 120-130 using real-world ADCs. Eight-bit audio has a dynamic range of "only" 48 dB; can you reliably tell the difference between 8-bit and 16-bit audio?
Play all of these tests at maximum digital volume. Just be aware that they're not designed to be scientific, but rather to give you some perspective. Try them out for yourself and feel free to post your results in the comments section below!

A $2 Codec Sounds (to us) like a $2000 Device

 Benchmark Media DAC2 HGCJDSLabs O2+ODACAsus Xonar Essence STXRealtek ALC889
Price~$2000~$290 (including AC adapter)$190~$2 (OEM in volume)
Pros-Great sound quality
-Outstanding build quality
-Only device to support 88.2/176.4/DSD64 in practice
-Dual headphone out
-Greatest number of analog/digital I/O and features (remote control, LCD display)
-Free 30-day trial
-Great sound quality
-Open-source design that can be self-assembled at lower price point
-High-quality volume control
-Semi-portable
-Great sound quality
-Does not take up desk space
-Has both RCA and 1/4" TRS output
-Has ADC stage
-Great sound quality
-Outstanding value
-Does not take up desk space
-Supports eight-channel audio
-Doesn't require PCIe or USB connectivity
Cons-Very expensive
-You pay for features; sound quality is matched at lower price points
-Adds desk clutter
-No RCA output
-No TRS 1/4" jack
-Power transformer not included
-Adds desk clutter
-RCA and 1/4" TRS output cannot be concurrently active; switch is software-only
-Requires free PCIe slot
-No external volume control
-Essentially no portability
-Not as linear or hi-fi as the other devices (-1.4 dB  @ 100 Hz)
-No TRS 1/4" jack
-Fixed gain setting
-No external volume control
-Essentially no portability
ApplicationExtreme PC-driven DAC / headphone amplifier and natural interconnect point with any high-end hi-fi systemDedicated DAC and headphone amplifier with a convenient volume control and option for limited portabilityBudget hi-fi solution that allows switching between 2(.1) stereo speakers and high-end headphones"Near-Fi" solution that fits almost all major use cases and dominates from a value perspective
I sank $2000 of my own money into the DAC2 HGC last December, so I subjectively wanted it to sound better than everything else. Tests have shown that it doesn't. I was surprised, but, having been personally involved in the evaluation and believing in the integrity of what we set up, I rationally accept the findings.
Of course, we're ready for the audiophile community to rise up in arms about the statement you'll read next, but it's true that neither an intermediate enthusiast nor a serious one with ~$70,000 in gear at home were able to reliably tell apart any of the four devices once we properly set up a blind test with accurate volume-matching. We actually enjoyed them all as great audio experiences.
Using world-class headphones, a $2 Realtek integrated audio codec could not be reliably distinguished from the $2000 Benchmark DAC2 HGC in a four-device round-up. Again, all four devices sounded great. The same might not apply to full-sized speakers; we can't say, since we didn't test them. But as far as some of the best headphones in the world go, we stand by these test results.
While calibration does show that Realtek's ALC889 is less linear, and thus less hi-fi than the other devices we're looking at, the 1.4 dB difference at 100 Hz apparently isn't enough to reliably differentiate the experience it delivers from others in real-world scenarios. Isn't 1.4 dB a pretty big difference? In a "pure tone", it would be quite noticeable. That's less the case when you're listening to regular music though, especially if the more sensitive 1 to 4 kHz tones are more accurately matched.

But $2 Buys A Smaller Subset of Features

If we halted our exploration at perceived audio quality, we'd only be telling half of the story. There's just so much more to a DAC/amplifier.
Neither the Realtek codec nor Asus' Xonar provide volume control, aside from what you get in Windows. Realtek does support DSD, but without an ASIO driver, we couldn't get it working in foobar2000. Neither lower-end solution can drive headphones and speakers concurrently, let alone automatically mute speakers when headphones are connected. They don't support amplifying an external source, either. Not surprisingly, they're strictly tied to a single device with no real portability. Realtek does facilitate eight-channel output, and the integrated codec and discrete sound card help prevent clutter on your desk.
The DAC2 and O2, being USB-based audio devices, can be plugged into and rapidly switched between any USB source. Want to connect your laptop to your audio system rather than your desktop? That's easy. The O2 has a very high-quality analog volume control, which provided the finest calibration in our round-up. The DAC2 has a motorized volume control with remote control. Want to listen to your headphones in bed and adjust the volume without getting up? Only the DAC2 can do that.
Ultimately, music is about entertainment and personal enjoyment. Hi-fi is meaningful insofar as it heightens the experience of music; it is not necessarily helpful beyond that. Some audiophiles even prefer the low-fi distortion that tube amplifiers introduce. The DAC2, O2+DAC, Xonar Essence STX, and ALC889 are all outstanding solutions. Each delivers a beautiful experience that you'd certainly enjoy. They're similar when it comes to sound quality. Where they differ is mainly in their feature sets and price points.

Value Considerations

I think that money spent on quality recordings, whether they're digital recordings, CDs, DVDs, or SACDs, is the money best-spent. They'll simply never become obsolete.
From there, speakers and headphones are the most important components in your sound system. Headphones generally give you better bang for your buck and are usually more convenient. Obviously, though, they can't replicate the experience of full-range speakers. You feel bass from a subwoofer in ways a headphone can't match. Also, listening to high-end speakers well-separated provides a more immersive experience.
If headphones are the way you go, then our tests show that quality integrated audio codecs are sufficient for driving some of the best in the world. You simply have to live with the fact that a motherboard with built-in audio is going to give you fewer features. That's the point where you have to decide what you're willing to pay for.
 
- See more at: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html#sthash.AlO4KDVn.dpuf
 
Try out the various tests available on the hotlinks above and see what your hearing is really like.  Very interesting article.

 
Jun 28, 2015 at 4:40 PM Post #608 of 1,366
i appreciate your dedication... very good analysis and experiment
ksc75smile.gif

 
But when i bought the aune t 1 dac i sense immediately a difference with my soundcard....when i bought the hifimediy asynch dac it was better immediately to my ears than the aune t1 for the He 400 .... when i bought the bushmaster dac the improvement was audible in speakers and headphone (the sound was less thin for example)  Why i had these hallucinations and only me?
ph34r.gif
i will not return back to my realtek....
deadhorse.gif

 
Jun 28, 2015 at 6:07 PM Post #609 of 1,366
  i appreciate your dedication... very good analysis and experiment
ksc75smile.gif

 
But when i bought the aune t 1 dac i sense immediately a difference with my soundcard....when i bought the hifimediy asynch dac it was better immediately to my ears than the aune t1 for the He 400 .... when i bought the bushmaster dac the improvement was audible in speakers and headphone (the sound was less thin for example)  Why i had these hallucinations and only me?
ph34r.gif
i will not return back to my realtek....
deadhorse.gif


I'd look at it as money well spent in your case since you noticed the improvement in the sound.
o2smile.gif

 
Jun 28, 2015 at 6:16 PM Post #610 of 1,366
 
I'd look at it as money well spent in your case since you noticed the improvement in the sound.
o2smile.gif


thanks for my crying wallet
popcorn.gif

 
Jun 28, 2015 at 6:50 PM Post #612 of 1,366
 
thanks for my crying wallet
popcorn.gif

 
Consider yourself damned lucky you can still hear your wallet. Mine's upped & left the building months ago
eek.gif
 
 
Jun 28, 2015 at 6:52 PM Post #613 of 1,366
 oups!
atsmile.gif
i think i had said a word to(o)  much.....
 
Jun 28, 2015 at 7:00 PM Post #615 of 1,366
Not to be rude, but I don't think you really read through the previous posts before this. I already have an amp, and I am wondering if the onboard sound card of my Asus Hero VI is good enough not to bottleneck my rig

you are right that I don't remember your previous posts here. my answer is still the same though. your onboard sound card is most likely sufficient. you can possibly eek out a bit more sonic return, but you will need to look into much higher end type dacs than the ones you mentioned or a dac with a relatively more drastic difference in coloration/presentation to appreciate it. basically, I don't think you have to worry too much about your sound card being a bottleneck. Usually, the amplifier is the 'bottleneck' for headphone performance.
 
no worries, no offense taken. just trying to be helpful :) cheers
 
edit: also note that from my own personal testing of dacs, I've found that price does not correlate with whether things sound better. a lot of dac swaps I've done do not really cause any drastic alteration in sound or may sound different (but hard to say which presentation was clearly 'better')
 

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