Pricing, tiers, TOTL, etc. - What is the *material* difference?

May 14, 2025 at 7:16 AM Post #226 of 252
It seems we only have anecdotal evidence and bias influenced perceptions with no evidence that demonstrates a definitive position to the contrary.

That being the case, what on earth is the point of the conversation except to argue on the internet with strangers.

I believe I hear this but I know that might be less than a bulletproof observation, I don’t hear that at all, I don’t know what I hear because I don’t use IEM but please prove your listening impressions to me because science demands proof …….

I am not sure where the science is in this line of discussion at all.
 
May 14, 2025 at 7:28 AM Post #227 of 252
Could you, as a professional with all your experience/knowledge/access to relevant information, provide evidence either way regarding if different driver types (not hybrids) used in earphones/headphones have distinct sound characteristics and can be reliably told apart?
I’m not a professional in that particular field but I can’t provide reliable evidence of that, hence why I CANNOT make that claim and neither can you, so why did you and why are you continuing to argue that assertion?!

G
 
May 14, 2025 at 12:07 PM Post #229 of 252
OK, so, time for personal anecdotal observations regarding a recent purchase.

Now that I have my first (and it will likely remain the only) IEM in the "mid-fi" tier (Dunu DaVinci) I... Well they sound... Certainly not NEUTRAL given how bass heavy they are. But I wasn't really looking for anything neutral so I don't mind. I don't think they sound as if they are "reproducing" the exact same sound as the producers of the music I listen to heard. Or, idk, the exact sound the people at a concert did. The bass heaviness does color things for sure.

Haptically they seem "cheaper" to me than my other "expensive" IEMs, the TRI I3 - but that's mostly just because the I3 have these heavy metal shells, whereas the DaVincis are just plain old plastic. The heavy duty cable makes up a bit for that impression.

Do the almost twice as pricey DaVincis sound almost twice as good as the I3? No. I like the sound, I like the bassiness, I like the "serious" cable they come with. And yes the sample size of exactly two pairs of IEMs isn't exactly representative of anything but that's why I preface this with "personal anecdote." But I don't think the DaVincis will make me get rid of the I3s.

Now we can debate whether or not getting another pair of IEMs is at all a good use of my disposable income when I was already pretty happy with the ones I had. But then asking that question is questioning the audiophile "hobby" as a whole I feel. But with these now I'm pretty positive that they'll have to actually break before I get another pair of IEMs. Or full sized headphones for that matter. It's odd, right, that saying "I am happy with with the gear I have" always seems like saying "I'm done with the audiophile hobby." Because if you're good with what you have, well, what else is there to say but "yeah this sounds great." Which gets me back to my whole thing where the audiophile hobby as a "hobby" is mostly just commodity fetishism / a cargo cult.

I guess an interesting / odd comparison is between audio and video. Because... Well, "high definition" audio is... Mostly something we've had since, well, pick a date. Video is a whole different ballgame there I feel like. It's much easier to see the difference between 1080p resolution and 8k than it is to discern a notable difference between... 320kbps and, IDK, STEM files or whatever is sold as the peak "high definition" audio these days.
 
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May 14, 2025 at 12:46 PM Post #230 of 252
Well if you can't point to any information regarding this, can someone else, @VNandor can you help?

Argue? I was seeking to understand and thought you would provide some info on the subject 🤷‍♂️
IMO, the main problem with a conversation on driver tech is that it usually completely passes beside the notion of size and sealed vs vented. Even though those 2 variables have a significant impact for very physical reasons.
When we try to see apple to apple, we really don't. What's the average size of a planar's membrane? What's the average size of a BA's membrane? They're massively different in size. As for DD, I cannot help but think people describe a woofer when they talk about those in an IEM and that makes no sense. And put together, we get to pretend to that the big dynamic driver in a vented design and a microdriver(dynamic 6mm and smaller, or so I was told) in a sealed design, are the same thing because they're both DD? No!
I'm not saying the tech doesn't have any impact, for example, I don't expect a massive BA driver big enough to work on a full-size headphone to be anything but crap. BAs only works ok-ish as a piston effect in a "tube", they have an output too weak for much or anything else. So the tech definitely has some impact, I just don't think it offers a clear or appropriate classification of sound. It's a clear classification of tech, but it was that already.
 
May 14, 2025 at 12:55 PM Post #231 of 252
I'm not saying the tech doesn't have any impact, for example, I don't expect a massive BA driver big enough to work on a full-size headphone to be anything but crap. BAs only works ok-ish as a piston effect in a "tube", they have an output too weak for much or anything else. So the tech definitely has some impact, I just don't think it offers a clear or appropriate classification of sound. It's a clear classification of tech, but it was that already.

So if iem's with a single dd, ba's or a planar were tested for differences (without knowing which was played), there would be differences but you wouldn't be able to pick out the planar or others?
 
May 14, 2025 at 2:15 PM Post #232 of 252
So if iem's with a single dd, ba's or a planar were tested for differences (without knowing which was played), there would be differences but you wouldn't be able to pick out the planar or others?
I mean, in an "all else being equal" scenario, it might be possible to "spot the planar" because either the other designs would sound "over-powered" and only the planar would sound "correct" - or the other way round, all other designs would sound about right, but the planar would sound thin and, well, "under-powered."

I haven't tested this out, this is just something I'm now wondering.
 
May 14, 2025 at 2:20 PM Post #233 of 252
I mean, in an "all else being equal" scenario, it might be possible to "spot the planar" because either the other designs would sound "over-powered" and only the planar would sound "correct" - or the other way round, all other designs would sound about right, but the planar would sound thin and, well, "under-powered."

I haven't tested this out, this is just something I'm now wondering.

That's a huge assumption there IMHO. There are quality differences amongst the same driver tech themselves. An older IEM planar driver from 2020 would seriously sound different the current 2025 IEM planar driver if all variables are the same (same chamber, electrical properties (impedance/sensitivity), measured FR curve, same ear tips). Then again, I'm also just pondering here and making assumptions too
 
May 14, 2025 at 2:47 PM Post #234 of 252
So if iem's with a single dd, ba's or a planar were tested for differences (without knowing which was played), there would be differences but you wouldn't be able to pick out the planar or others?
A completely sealed tiny planar with a membrane the size of the BA's membrane for "fair" matching? :imp: And of course they'd all have the same sensitivity?
I expect that the best sounding planars are vented and are IDK somewhere around 15mm at least. So yes I think that overall, I could guess they're not the same because nothing is going to be the same anyway.

But really I have no idea about what would happen, were we able to somehow do an apple to apple test(just determining what that should be, seems like it would give us a headache). But even without that, how often have I been in a situation of not knowing the 2 IEMs, not knowing the drivers, and just purely guessing? I know the answer for myself, never! I have to go back to being a teen, and then all the in ear I had, were DD earbuds anyway.

It's not hard to feel like we know stuff in hindsight.
Maybe we also fall in the circular system where consumers expect something from a tech, so more of the IEMs with that tech are perhaps tuned for that expectations? IDK.

I always have the reverse experience, where I know what I have, I listen with all my expectations, biases, focusing on what I want to find, then my brain decides it has found some pattern after maybe 2 or 3 IEMs vaguely sounding similar in a given way, and me knowing they have tech A. From now on when I'll try tech A, I'll expect, seek, maybe even invent that sound characteristic. When I find it, I knew it all along! When I don't, maybe I forget about that event more easily, or I find some excuse like it's not that good and that's why my clever oversimplification of a rule doesn't work.
We interpret reality as so many patterns, we love them, we live with and for them, and in a slightly less messed up way, we're all a little bit of Jim Carey in The number 23.

I guess all that pointless rambling to say that gregorio asked how you knew about the sound differences between driver types because, and maybe you're starting to also see that pattern a little too often for your own taste, in here we don't like people drawing objective conclusions from completely subjective and poorly controlled impressions. When the system is multivariable, just ignoring all but one variable, while actually not doing anything to control or remove all the others, it's the very thing we reject in this section.
And as I often suggest, there is absolutely no negative impact to just saying we don't know when a question has too many variables for us to handle. Here or in my life, I have nothing but respect for those who can just tell me they don't know when they don't. And here, the sound of different driver techs, just what I managed to think about makes it too complicated for me.

Now if I ask myself casually what I feel about driver techs in IEMs, I'll think that BA's roll off too early(single BA as we are talking single everything, right?), even though I've owned an er4S that had nice extension in the trebles, maybe even a little too much for my taste.
I'll think that DD are the best sounding, and that planars have weirdo treble.
That's not just a blatant overgeneralization, that I expect many people to disagree with and even some people to agree with(like just about any opinion about anything). Some of those ideas I didn't even get from IEMs. But they're in my head anyway. My brain simplified everything to a fault and turned it into a simple pattern indeed, driver techs.
I can say all this for the anecdote, and have more sense than to actually claim it's the objective truth. Just consider any question, any system, think about the variables actually involved, if there are 2 or 3 more than the 2 you wanted to correlate, chances are that the answer is more complicated than whatever your guts told you. Doesn't mean your guts will stop talking to you, they won't.

In conclusion, IDK how to test that because I can't think of conditions that wouldn't be unfair to a driver tech. So I revert to my previous post, we probably shouldn't even try to reduce IEM sounds to their driver tech( could also applies to amps, DACs, and much more).
 
May 14, 2025 at 2:47 PM Post #235 of 252
I mean, in an "all else being equal" scenario, it might be possible to "spot the planar" because either the other designs would sound "over-powered" and only the planar would sound "correct" - or the other way round, all other designs would sound about right, but the planar would sound thin and, well, "under-powered."

I haven't tested this out, this is just something I'm now wondering.

Well I presumed (I obviously presume too much) that each would be powered and tuned to an optimum and then compared. I was sure someone with experience would be able to say - 'that's a planar' or that's the dd, but some of you tell me that's not so.

Now if I ask myself casually what I feel about driver techs in IEMs, I'll think that BA's roll off too early(single BA as we are talking single everything, right?), even though I've owned an er4S that had nice extension in the trebles, maybe even a little too much for my taste.
I'll think that DD are the best sounding, and that planars have weirdo treble.

Campfire Andromeda's are an all ba and you couldn't say their treble is rolled off.
Planars have weirdo treble? They're actually now making many high end (read expensive) hybrid iem's with a small planar just for the treble.
 
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May 14, 2025 at 2:54 PM Post #236 of 252
Well I presumed (I obviously presume too much) that each would be powered and tuned to an optimum and then compared. I was sure someone with experience would be able to say - 'that's a planar' or that's the dd, but some of you tell me that's not so.

A Campfire Audio Astrolith planar sounds completely different in both tonality and timbre than say Letshouer S12 planar. I think if I hadn't known their drivers, I would even think the Astrolith could be a tribrid DD + BA + EST just from its tuning and my perception. IMHO, it's really hard to generalize down to driver tech alone
 
May 14, 2025 at 3:19 PM Post #238 of 252
He meant a single BA. AFAIK, the Andromeda is multi BA.

I haven't heard a single BA IEM on the market that's less rolled rolled-off than multi-BA or tribrid IEMs yet. The Etymotic ER4 ones are definitely rolled-off relative to the modern tribrid IEMs being sold today
 
May 14, 2025 at 6:01 PM Post #239 of 252
Well I presumed (I obviously presume too much) that each would be powered and tuned to an optimum and then compared.
Not picking on you, @Ryokan, by any means! :ksc75smile:
The problem is with “tuned to an optimum”: what does it mean? Tuned to deliver the exact same sound waves at your eardrum for any frequency? Then what would make them sound different?

Where the driver tech plays a role is that “tuned to an optimum” may not always be possible. BA drivers tend to be specialized—narrow bandwidth, typically in medium/high freq. Can they be designed for bass? Yes, to a degree, but the FR may suffer at the other end of the spectrum.

To me, different driver tech. means different technical constraints & limitations, translating into different trade-offs… But not a different “sound” per se: the air molecules hitting my ear drum don’t know what driver technology was used…
 
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May 14, 2025 at 6:22 PM Post #240 of 252
Not picking on you, @Ryokan, by any means! :ksc75smile:
The problem is with “tuned to an optimum”: what does it mean? Tuned to deliver the exact same sound waves at your eardrum for any frequency? Then what would make them sound different?

Where the driver tech plays a role is that “tuned to an optimum” May not always be possible. BA drivers tend to be specialized—narrow bandwidth, typically in medium/high freq. Can they be designed for bass? Yes, to a degree, but the FR may suffer at the other end of the spectrum.

Fair enough. Tuned to an optimum - a good representation for that driver type and driven with enough power.

Now you're going to ask what can be judged a good representation for a particular driver type...
 

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