Pricing, tiers, TOTL, etc. - What is the *material* difference?

[gregorio]

Planar bass always sounds different to a DD and a DD different to a BA and a BA different to a BC although I only have one frame of reference to BC bass drivers.
That could be bias but I really don’t think so, I am very critical of myself with biases, I don’t like to kid myself.

Careful, that last sentence is a killer! BS audiophile reviews hardly ever mention the possibility of biases but on those rare occasions when they do, your last sentence is pretty much a verbatim quote! Many have been bitten on the a$$ by that one.

I tend to stay out of discussions of this sort on IEMs because unlike anything else in the audio chain and even other transducers (like mics and speakers), IEMs rely on coupling and can only be used and measured coupled. This introduces a whole range of variables, the seal, insertion depth, shape and volume of both a coupler and of course of the human ear canal, which is at least somewhat different from person to person. Therefore, making an assertion here such as “bass ALWAYS sounds different …” is at best dodgy, and at worst outright wrong/misleading. How can you prove, demonstrate or provide reliable evidence of that assertion?

Definitly, as does tech like @theveterans pointed out.

Same as above, on what basis do you claim “definitely”? And, the tech theveterans was pointing out (arguing about) was DACs, which are not similar at all, unless you have a DAC that relies on you hammering it into your ear canal?

G

 

[Ryokan]

Same as above, on what basis do you claim “definitely”? And, the tech theveterans was pointing out (arguing about) was DACs, which are not similar at all, unless you have a DAC that relies on you hammering it into your ear canal?

BA's, DD's, Planars, electrostats usually all have a distinctive sound.
I'm fairly certain @theveterans mentioned tech as well relating to headphones and iem's?

 

[theveterans]

BA's, DD's, Planars, electrostats usually all have a distinctive sound.
I'm fairly certain @theveterans mentioned tech as well relating to headphones and iem's?

They do certainly do but depending on IEMs fo sure. The high end IEMs try to make everything as coherent as possible

 

[gregorio]

BA's, DD's, Planars, electrostats usually all have a distinctive sound.

What reliable evidence do you have for this assertion? And even if there were reliable evidence for this, how would that justify your claim of “definitely”?

I'm fairly certain @theveterans mentioned tech as well relating to headphones and iem's?

But also of DAC tech that was clearly incorrect, plus what he wrote about HPs and IEMs was at least partially incorrect/a false narrative and he also provided no reliable evidence.

G

 

[Ryokan]

What reliable evidence do you have for this assertion? And even if there were reliable evidence for this, how would that justify your claim of “definitely”?

In my experience, and are you seriously saying there are no differences at all between different driver types? Why have engineers made different tech (for iem's especially) isn't it because each have different strengths/applications?

 

[XTF1]

In my experience, and are you seriously saying there are no differences at all between different driver types? Why have engineers made different tech (for iem's especially) isn't it because each have different strengths/applications?

There are differences between these different drivers, some tend to have wider bandwidth, or higher distortion in some area of their FR, or variable impedance…. But, I have yet to see evidences that they have a “distinctive sound.”
It’s like saying a Ferrari driven at 55mph has a distinctive speed compared to a Prius driven at 55mph: yes, they are vastly different, but they are both making the same 55mph.

Perhaps you wanted to say that “BA's, DD's, Planars, electrostats usually all have distinctive characteristics, strengths and weaknesses”…

 

[VNandor]

They have harmonics

Which is exactly why these instruments would still sound different even if if we conveniently ignored the fact that just because two IEMs measure the same below 4kHz on some rig they very likely won't measure the same in someone's ears.

 

[Ryokan]

Perhaps you wanted to say that “BA's, DD's, Planars, electrostats usually all have distinctive characteristics, strengths and weaknesses”

Which is essentially what I said. Splitting hairs which is what I've come to expect on the Science sub-forum.

 

[BS5711]

Careful, that last sentence is a killer! BS audiophile reviews hardly ever mention the possibility of biases but on those rare occasions when they do, your last sentence is pretty much a verbatim quote! Many have been bitten on the a$$ by that one.

Indeed.

I winced a little as I wrote that as I was aware of the limitations of it but at the same time it was closer to my truth than not so I went with it.

While I understand bias, at least from a layman’s perspective, I do feel that the difference in sound between different driver types is real when it comes to bass nuances.

I somewhat strongly feel that overall driver type timbre isn’t a thing but I have a limited frame of reference.

I don’t establish anything without it being based on long term experience over many listening sessions and always having listened to a set of IEM (in this case) after having listened to another for some time to see if there is any glaring difference that might get lost in extended listening to one set only.

That said, it might be down to other factors that others have mentioned here or it may be, as you rightly indicated above, I have been duped by my own psychology because I have no practical way to help eliminate that in the way I (attempt to) do with blind comparing electronics. I am very aware of just how convincing perception based only on bias can be.

Thank you for digging up the 711 related specs, that is very interesting. The 711 coupler is always used over the typical 20 Hz to to 20 kHz range but the spec indicates that it is designed for 100 Hz to 10 kHz, there may very well be a clue right there alongside the other aspects of testing limitations that you mentioned.

Thanks again.

 

[gregorio]

In my experience, and are you seriously saying there are no differences at all between different driver types?

Firstly, I asked for reliable evidence and you’ve responded with “my experience”, which ranks alongside anecdotes and marketing as being the very least reliable evidence. Imagine if science was based on nothing but whatever any scientist claimed to be their experience, that’s pretty much the opposite of science and how facts were discerned in the dark ages. If you’re going to make a claim about technology here and can’t back it up with anything other than “my experience”, then the basic principles of science dictate we treat is as a BS claim. Secondly, I did not “seriously say” anything about differences between driver types, I have not made any claims/assertions and therefore have no responsibility/requirement to provide any reliable supporting evidence. Burden of Proof, your claim of “definitely” is BS without it!

Why have engineers made different tech (for iem's especially) isn't it because each have different strengths/applications?

That is a classic example of an “Argument from Ignorance” fallacy. Effectively: “I don’t know what other explanation there could be, so it must be this one”. That is a strange position to take, because the audiophile world has famous examples that provide another explanation. There is the different tech for amps, tubes and solid state, each have different strengths/weaknesses but both are audibly transparent (unless deliberately designed not to be). R2R vs DS is another example with DACs. The reason why engineers make these different techs today is because marketing departments tell them to. What reliable evidence do you have this typical audiophile reason/explanation isn’t the case with IEMs?

While I understand bias, at least from a layman’s perspective, I do feel that the difference in sound between different driver types is real when it comes to bass nuances.

That is just a re-wording of your previous rationale and also virtually identical to the fallacious argument used by audiophile reviewers. Do you have any reliable evidence to support that assertion? This is why I tend not to participate much in these types of discussions about IEMs, they can’t really be DBT’ed and due to measurement uncertainties/inaccuracies convincingly demonstrating claims of “nuances” is tricky. Likewise, I can’t prove there is no sonic differences between different driver types in IEMs, which is why I’m not claiming that to be the case. So I’m taking the scientific/rational approach of skepticism, the default position that it’s marketing/BS until reliably demonstrated otherwise. Again though, I’m no expert in the field of measuring IEMs and there may well be reliable evidence (which demonstrates the claims) that I’m simply unaware of, hence why I’m asking for reliable evidence. So far all I’ve been given is the most unreliable anecdotal evidence and fallacies, which is the typical audiophile response when the claims are false.

Thank you for digging up the 711 related specs, that is very interesting. The 711 coupler is always used over the typical 20 Hz to to 20 kHz range but the spec indicates that it is designed for 100 Hz to 10 kHz, there may very well be a clue right there alongside the other aspects of testing limitations that you mentioned.

You’re welcome. Logically that must always be step one, “digging up” what the measurement is actually measuring (and what it’s not measuring). Again though, don’t take my word for it, especially as I don’t know the subject well! For example, I notice there are additional IEC specs that extend the range (EG. IEC 60318-8 extends it to 16kHz), although that’s quite recent and in my cursory research, I’ve only seen IEC 60318-4 cited.

G

 

[bigshot]

Different types of drivers may sound different, but that doesn’t mean that they have a signature sound. If someone handed you a set of cans you’d never seen before, you wouldn’t be able to tell what the driver was made of by sound alone.

 

[Ryokan]

Firstly, I asked for reliable evidence and you’ve responded with “my experience”, which ranks alongside anecdotes and marketing as being the very least reliable evidence. Imagine if science was based on nothing but whatever any scientist claimed to be their experience, that’s pretty much the opposite of science and how facts were discerned in the dark ages. If you’re going to make a claim about technology here and can’t back it up with anything other than “my experience”, then the basic principles of science dictate we treat is as a BS claim. Secondly, I did not “seriously say” anything about differences between driver types, I have not made any claims/assertions and therefore have no responsibility/requirement to provide any reliable supporting evidence. Burden of Proof, your claim of “definitely” is BS without it!

I'm at home listening to music using an assortment of iem's with different tech, I'm not in a research centre wearing a long white coat holding a clip board with a pen in my mouth, sorry to disappoint you. There are differences in sound between driver types in IEM'S and HEADPHONES, some things are a given and I question your reasons for always arguing on every single aspect.

That is a classic example of an “Argument from Ignorance” fallacy. Effectively: “I don’t know what other explanation there could be, so it must be this one”. That is a strange position to take, because the audiophile world has famous examples that provide another explanation. There is the different tech for amps, tubes and solid state, each have different strengths/weaknesses but both are audibly transparent (unless deliberately designed not to be). R2R vs DS is another example with DACs. The reason why engineers make these different techs today is because marketing departments tell them to. What reliable evidence do you have this typical audiophile reason/explanation isn’t the case with IEMs?

I was talking about Iem's, I've only been talking about iem's and headphones and the tech used for them.

 

[gregorio]

I'm at home listening to music using an assortment of iem's with different tech, I'm not in a research centre wearing a long white coat holding a clip board with a pen in my mouth, sorry to disappoint you.

You should indeed be sorry, not just to me but to everyone here, this isn’t the “What Ryokan experiences at home” forum, this is the Sound Science forum. If you’re going to make claims about technology/science then you have to support them with more than just unscientific experiences!

There are differences in sound between driver types in IEM'S and HEADPHONES, some things are a given and I question your reasons for always arguing on every single aspect.

1. If it’s a given then it should be relatively easy to provide some reliable evidence.
2. However, your response is another fallacy (“Moving the Goalposts”)! The issue was not if “there are differences in sound between driver types”, it’s your claim that there are “definitely” audible characteristic differences between IEMs due to those driver types!
3. My reason for arguing is that you’ve made a significant claim but in response to a request for reliable evidence all you’ve presented is unscientific experiences and fallacies. So, I question YOUR reasons for arguing on this “aspect” with nothing other than BS?

I was talking about Iem's, I've only been talking about iem's and headphones and the tech used for them.

Unless you can demonstrate that the almost ubiquitous marketing tactics applied to the audiophile DAC and Amp examples (and pretty much all other audiophile equipment) somehow doesn’t apply to IEMs, then it doesn’t make any difference!

G

 

[XTF1]

I'm at home listening to music using an assortment of iem's with different tech, I'm not in a research centre wearing a long white coat holding a clip board with a pen in my mouth, sorry to disappoint you. There are differences in sound between driver types in IEM'S and HEADPHONES, some things are a given

I also listen to music using IEMs or Heaphones with different drivers. They ‘sound’ different for sure, meaning “I perceive them sounding different”, but even subjectively, I cannot group them by driver technology. I have many IEMs and I don’t always recall what drivers they use. It goes like this: “this IEM has less bass than the other one… Sure, it’s a planar… But that one has more bass, I wonder… Oh S***, it’s also a planar, I had forgotten about it…”

There are differences in perceived sound between IEM'S and HEADPHONES, not driver types, and these things are not a given: my anecdotal experience contradicts your.

 

[Ryokan]

What reliable evidence do you have for this assertion? And even if there were reliable evidence for this, how would that justify your claim of “definitely”?

I don't have any evidence to present. Could you, as a professional with all your experience/knowledge/access to relevant information, provide evidence either way regarding if different driver types (not hybrids) used in earphones/headphones have distinct sound characteristics and can be reliably told apart? Thanks.