Pricing, tiers, TOTL, etc. - What is the *material* difference?

[gregorio]

In my experience, the jump from mid-tier to TOTL usually brings better technicalities—like soundstage, resolution, and layering

Only one of those is a “technicality”, resolution, the others are perceptions, not technicalities.

but diminishing returns are real.

They started ceasing to be real in the 1970’s, even before digital audio was released to consumers and today, the jump from mid-tier to TOTL commonly brings worse resolution.

Sometimes smart pairing (DAC/amp/source) can close the gap more than just upgrading gear.

What gap, do you have any reliable evidence to support your claims?

G

 

[colonelkernel8]

Forget about EQ. Just using different apps to play the same stream already results to audible differences. 16/44.1 Tidal on a web browser sounds audibly different than playing the same file on Tidal app

See what I mean about hearing being fallible? Tidal on a web browser and Tidal in the Tidal "app" are being played using the *exact* same software, because the Tidal app is running on Electron, which is a web framework that essentially lets them package the web app into a desktop app.

 

[evanft]

What gap, do you have any reliable evidence to support your claims?

"Synergy" has become a new audiophile buzz word to handwave away spending tons of money on audibly transparent gear. Although I could see an argument to be made for caring about synergy where you have a particularly colored-sounding tube amp or one with a very high output impedance, but that's going to be special situation.

 

[colonelkernel8]

@Diet Kokaine
I mean this in the most sincere way possible.

Can’t you just admit that you don’t completely understand what you’re talking about? You’re talking to people with a lot more knowledge and experience than you. Maybe you can listen to them and learn something instead of clinging to your false beliefs.

If you just admit that your assertions are wrong and actually be willing to learn something, we’d greatly appreciate that and would be happy to boost your knowledge.

One of my favourite tracks has a quote I really like:

“The only good is knowledge, and the only evil is ignorance”.

Maybe take some inspiration from that?

This is in no way shape or form a personal attack. We want to help you gain more knowledge, but we can’t do that if you keep posting misinformation in a science forum.

He's a kid, so no, I don't think he's going to be able to admit it.

Also, @theveterans, I want to hear what you think "DAC-based EQ is". Go on, let's hear it.

I'm tired of the games in this forum originating from the 2 or 3 Dunning-Kruger enjoyers who can't help but plaster their ignorance all over every thread we have here.

 

[evanft]

Also, @theveterans, I want to hear what you think "DAC-based EQ is". Go on, let's hear it.

If I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, I think they mean when the DAC itself has some sort of EQ feature built in, like what JDS Labs offers.

 

[theveterans]

See what I mean about hearing being fallible? Tidal on a web browser and Tidal in the Tidal "app" are being played using the *exact* same software, because the Tidal app is running on Electron, which is a web framework that essentially lets them package the web app into a desktop app.

YMMV. If you can’t hear a difference, good, but never assume all humans are on the same spectrum as your perception

If I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, I think they mean when the DAC itself has some sort of EQ feature built in, like what JDS Labs offers.

This

 

[colonelkernel8]

YMMV. If you can’t hear a difference, good, but never assume all humans are on the same spectrum as your perception



This

It must be nice to be able to simply point to "well everyone is different ¯\_(ツ)_/¯" everytime someone calls you out for being incorrect.

If I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, I think they mean when the DAC itself has some sort of EQ feature built in, like what JDS Labs offers.

He always assumes the most bad-faith interpretations of my posts, so I don't think I'll extend him that courtesy.

 

[theveterans]

It must be nice to be able to simply point to "well everyone is different ¯\_(ツ)_/¯" everytime someone calls you out for being incorrect.

We don't think in absolutes ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[colonelkernel8]

We don't think in absolutes ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure seems like you do.

 

[theveterans]

Sure seems like you do.

An example of absolute to me is all you need to hear the sound of a headphone is measurements. Secondly, another example is all DACs that measure at or below audibility thresholds sound the same. Lastly, hearing is a fallacy and can NEVER EVER EVER be trusted. Those are absolutes lol

Wanna see what how a good recording engineer who trained their ears for a living. See this post here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/raal-1995-immanis.971583/post-18688388

 

[castleofargh]

We don't think in absolutes ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Except about your feelings always being the most accurate interpretation of reality.

An example of absolute to me is all you need to hear the sound of a headphone is measurements. Secondly, another example is all DACs that measure at or below audibility thresholds sound the same. Those are absolutes lol

First one doesn't exist. What you wrote doesn't even make sense. If you're going to make things up, put in the minimum effort of saying something false but somewhat believable.
The second one is probably true. Bearing in mind that we might need to check a bunch of variables, and volume match precisely before being able to more confidently expect that outcome. But as a principle, if the sound difference is below the audible threshold, then it's not audible. It's not absolutism, it's the literal definition of hearing threshold.

 

[colonelkernel8]

An example of absolute to me is all you need to hear the sound of a headphone is measurements. Secondly, another example is all DACs that measure at or below audibility thresholds sound the same. Lastly, hearing is a fallacy and can NEVER EVER EVER be trusted. Those are absolutes lol

Wanna see what how a good recording engineer who trained their ears for a living. See this post here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/raal-1995-immanis.971583/post-18688388

Without the ability to quickly nab an expensive headphone to listen to, measurements are the best thing we have.

Note in that post Danny doesn't appear to be using ANY measuring equipment for evaluating those speakers and he's listening in a concrete warehouse building. No wonder they were never released.

EDIT: Why are you even here? You've made it clear that you don't think that sound can be completely measured. That kind of thinking is the antithesis of "Sound Science", where our world model is built on the fact that sounds and other signals can be measured completely. Needless to say I disagree with you but it's fine I suppose if you have that opinion...this just isn't the place for it (just like when I get a stern talking to by a mod whenever I throw shade at products designed by ear in the rest of the Head-Fi forums).

 

[theveterans]

Without the ability to quickly nab an expensive headphone to listen to, measurements are the best thing we have.

Note in that post Danny doesn't appear to be using ANY measuring equipment for evaluating those speakers and he's listening in a concrete warehouse building. No wonder they were never released.

EDIT: Why are you even here? You've made it clear that you don't think that sound can be completely measured. That kind of thinking is the antithesis of "Sound Science", where our world model is built on the fact that sounds and other signals can be measured completely. Needless to say I disagree with you but it's fine I suppose if you have that opinion...this just isn't the place for it (just like when I get a stern talking to by a mod whenever I throw shade at products designed by ear in the rest of the Head-Fi forums).

I'm here for the title of discussion:

Pricing, tiers, TOTL, etc. - What is the *material* difference?​

Measurements only capture some of the qualities of a headphone regardless of whether they're TOTL or budget $20 IEMs ones

Supposed you have Dan Clark Noire X (1K headphone) against Truthear Zero ($60 IEM), both of which adhere strictly to Harman Target with very minor PEQ adjustments, do you absolutely believe that these two transducers would absolutely sound the same (oh both have extremely low THD and the waterfall plots are <1ms)? And speaking of group delay, both are uber clean

 

[colonelkernel8]

I'm here for the title of discussion:

Pricing, tiers, TOTL, etc. - What is the *material* difference?​

Measurements only capture some of the qualities of a headphone regardless of whether they're TOTL or budget $20 IEMs ones

Supposed you have Dan Clark Noire X (1K headphone) against Truthear Zero ($60 IEM), both of which adhere strictly to Harman Target with very minor PEQ adjustments, do you absolutely believe that these two transducers would absolutely sound the same (oh both have extremely low THD and the waterfall plots are <1ms)? And speaking of group delay, both are uber clean

What do you want me to say here? One is an in-ear vs over-ear. That alone is going to cause differences in FR because of the differences in the HRTF because of where it sits in/on the pinna and where the headphone sits on your head (in the case of the Noire X). There is also the psychological component of something in your ear/not in your ear that will bias your perceptions. The $60 IEM still probably sounds excellent (I can’t wear IEMs sadly) if it compares well to the Noire X.

Someone should develop a Klippel for earphones so we can take HRTF independent measurements for everything.

It certainly isn’t strange, unmeasurable phenomena altering the sound between the two.

 

[theveterans]

What do you want me to say here? One is an in-ear vs over-ear. That alone is going to cause differences in FR because of the differences in the HRTF because of where it sits in/on the pinna and where the headphone sits on your head (in the case of the Noire X). There is also the psychological component of something in your ear/not in your ear that will bias your perceptions. The $60 IEM still probably sounds excellent (I can’t wear IEMs sadly) if it compares well to the Noire X.

Someone should develop a Klippel for earphones so we can take HRTF independent measurements for everything.

It certainly isn’t strange, unmeasurable phenomena altering the sound between the two.

We can make it apples-apples with a $5500 TOTL PMG APX SE vs $20 Truthear Hola. Strictly speaking of frequency range up to 4KHz, do you believe this FR graph would make you think the Hola sound the same as APX SE on bass guitar, cello, lower octave piano, pipe organ (not being played at higher octaves of course) that does not have musical information above 4KHz?